atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Security, Alarms and Paging Infrared/Dark room

I have someone that needs a camera in a dark room for photography... The first thing I thought of was an IR camera that wouldn't cause visible light, but would record in there.

Will IR beams affect the film/developing paper at all? Thanks!

From Wikipedia:
That being said, infrared cameras normally use either the 850nm or the 940nm IR range LED's. The better illuminators (higher power) are the 850nm, however at this frequency you will see a dull red glow. The 940nm (less range, cheaper units) seem to be invisible to the naked eye so that would be my guess for a darkroom.

Humm...
It is a black/white photo darkroom, and it does have red lights in it.

When people are in there, the red lights are on, when photo is not being developed, the white lights are on, and when it is empty they turn all of the lights off.

There has been some vandalization to the darkroom (at a school) so the advisor wants some assurance that it is being recorded. I haven't seen the size of the darkroom, so I have no clue what range would be needed.

If I understand your thinking, a 940nm would be best? If it is, and the units are cheaper, I can see about getting one on both sides of the room, covering things a little better.

The darkroom has 24 enlarging units, so I don't suppose that it would be a small room. I still need to see how big it is.

One thing I was thinking was a LED panel... mounted on the cieling then smaller range cameras? Panel such as this:
[img]https://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/pinecom_1913_4156446[/img]
L-05 140 Infrared LED Light Panel with auto sensor.
Weather proof plastic molded case with 140 Infrared LED lights.
Built-in CDS(Photo Conductor Sensor) for panel to turn On/Off.
Power Consumption : DC 12~15V 800mA.
Illuminantion Range : 60 degree / 30 feet.
Lightwave : 850nM (Nanometer)
Size : 21mm x 120mm x 160mm.

I have seen some bigger/better than this one, not sure if it would even do the trick...

An ir puck may work for you with a few cameras

something like this


https://www.123securityproducts.com/vaprinilpu.html

You may want to find out a little more about what type of photographic processes are carried out in the darkroom. And, share your concerns regarding the infrared light source.

True, black-and-white darkrooms don't need to be completely dark. In fact, if they're setup properly you can actually see very well. Most B&W films/papers are hyper-sensitive toward the blue end of the spectrum. which is why darkroom "safe" lights are usually red or amber. Color darkrooms do live up to their name, they're dark...no light.

The light doesn't have to be visible to expose the materials. With the typical increased sensitivity to blues, ultra-violet light (not visible) is a definite problem (and x-rays).

I would think that you'd PROBABLY be OK in the typical B&W or graphic arts (process camera) darkroom. You would have more chance of a problem if there was any Color processing in the room.

You would absolutely have a problem if they happen to be working with infrared film.

Thanks for expressing your feelings/concerns and the information. I need all of the advice I can get about this. Mainly, It is black and white...I don't believe its IR film/paper though. My first concern was the camera altering/interfering with the images. Would be a DEFINATE problem.

The puck looks like an awesome idea! much better than a panel.

Now, if IRs end up being a problem, what about a regular camera, with a puck installed on the ceiling, then red filter paper over the puck? That would make the IR beams that filtered red I would think?

I tried to research the affects of IR in a darkroom but of course I only got information about IR negatives/paper.

Filters actually work by removing (filtering) particular wavelengths of light, rather than changing the color of the light that passes through. Of course, when the other colors are removed, the light that passes IS a different color.

If the work being done is B&W you'll probably be OK with an infrared light source. I would just keep the output as low as possible.

Making prints/enlargements from infrared negatives shouldn't be a problem either. It's infrared film, in particular that would have a real problem. Its not likely that they are using those types of materials, but its worth asking. In fact, you might just ask if they do ANYTHING in the darkroom that their red safelight needs to be turned off for. If they EVER work with materials that are sensitive to the red end of the spectrum, your infrared light sources will likely fog the materials.

Okay, thanks Marty. I'm talking with the advisor today, I'll ask her.

From my experience in photography class...color photography there is virtually no light. We had some very small lights on the wall that were greenish in color (if memory serves) just so we could see the walls going in and out of the darkroom. For B&W, everyone is correct, you use an amber/red safelight.

I talked with her, and none of the things they do in that class require all of the lights being turned off. It is a small sized darkroom, so two cameras in two opposite sides of the room with a illuminator puck has been requested.

Be careful with the puck. The problem with using one illuminator with two cameras; if one of them happens to be in view, or even close to the IR light, you will get washout. Remember, cameras see the IR as a light source, so it's like aiming the camera at a bright light.

I personally think you would be better off just running 2 cameras with built in IR illuminators. You never will have one camera in view of the other camera. Also, since both IR's are on at the same time, it will help the view of each individual camera.

OKay, so I need to revise that purchase order...

You think it would be better with a high-power IR on cameras themselves? Dome Cameras or other?

Depending on the room size, you may not even need high power IR. Remember, each camera has the benefit of the other's IR illuminator.

I think a couple of tamper proof enclosures (ceiling height, are they within reach?) would be best. When using IR, it is best to stay away from domes. They are normally smoked and this cuts down the low light sensitivity of the camera.

Another thing to consider, you can actually get some decent day/night cameras now at pretty reasonable prices. Not sure if they even need color or if some of the vandalism is happening when full lighting is on?

As far as I understood the situation, the vanalizing was happening while the dark lights were on.

I was hoping I could go with regular cameras with a few IR's built in. Looks like that might be the way to go.

Since the room is small, just has a bunch of hidden corners, I think that a puck would overpower the cameras too now.

The day/night cameras should work well. I woudl think it is worth looking into

Okay, so no IR at all w/ day/night cameras then right?

No, the day/night cameras we are talking about have IR too. When the light level is high enough, they work in color. When the light level drops, they switch to B&W and the built in IR turns on.

Sort of the best of both worlds. They use to be very pricey but I've seen some good quotes lately.

Here's an example:
https://www.honeywellvideo.com/products/cameras/bu/51066.html

It woudl be no stand alone IR, the cameras have a few LEDS built in. They do work well, and as mentioned the price has come down recently. You should be able to grab a couple for the same price as the two cmaeras with the puck if not a better price.

Awesome thanks for your help.

I agree on on what you said about the pricing Anthony. Any recommendations for a model?

The link I posted explains how the day/night works but the bullet style is probably not a good vandal proof idea.

I was just searching the net for some ideas and the only thing I am finding are domes. They appear to be clear domes and that would be alright though. The problem I see all the time is installers mounting vandal proof domes to removable ceiling tiles. What good is that!

If you have a solid wall (such as block for example), you could mount a vandal proof dome on the wall.

I really like those corner mount (wedge) style cameras but I haven't found any yet in IR let alone day/night.

The cieling is pretty high up in the darkroom, and there aren't any countertops for someone to stand on. If a buillet camera can get proper (valuable) width and angle (not just a narrow strip) it should work.

I have had some success with LEDome from speco, A little pricey though

https://www.specotech.com/cart/products/productDetails.asp?prodID=776

not truly a vandal resistant camera but should work..

Actually just installed a few of these as well,
but you tend to get a little reflection when the ir's are in use.
https://www.specotech.com/cart/products/productDetails.asp?prodID=868

I personally would use a IR bullet over a IR Dome, speco makes a few nice ones that are fairly low priced.

I have also had success with ganz products, I mainly use these outdoors but I do not see why the would not work indoors

https://www.cbcamerica.com/cctvprod/index.html

I have never used these but they look like they may work for you. It Actually looks like they have some nice products..Has anyone used them?


https://www.macepro.com/catalog/cctv-surveillance-cameras/camera-dome/CAM-67CIR/

They do look good Anthony.

Well, if his ceiling height is good, bullets will probably be fine.

We tend to use a lot of Silent Witness cameras here in the schools. They are now owned by Honeywell too. The nice part is they are vandal proof and indoor/outdoor. They also have school bus units.

They don't have a day/night IR version though but they have a B&W IR that I have used and like:
https://www.honeywellvideo.com/products/cameras/sp/37787.html

This one is nice, thanks for giving out a link and for your help. I think this is just a dome? It almost seems like a PTZ from the description.
https://www.macepro.com/catalog/cctv-surveillance-cameras/camera-dome/CAM-67CIR/

This one doesn't even look like a camera, but is nice. They want color though so B&W is out for sure.
https://www.honeywellvideo.com/products/cameras/sp/37787.html

The mace is not a PTZ, but it can be rotated 360 degrees with a 90 degree tilt so It looks like it is flexable as far as aiming. I like the flat front, It is almost like a bullet, but in a dome set up...If that makes sense. I actually just ordered one, I should have it in a few days I will post how it works out.

Awesome, I'm eager to hear. They look good

I know I am a bit late getting back on this one, but I received the MACE camera, It is a nice little unit, It works well and the image is clear, It will work well for a general coverage camera.

What size lens is it? I didn't see anything in any of the literature on that. I know it's a fixed lens, probably wide, 3.5 or 4mm?

I am not sure ,I can not find it anywhere either, it is wide lens, I would guess around 4mm.