Anyone have any experience with this system? I was involved with an install yesterday, seemed really nice, more feature rich than Cisco, much cheaper as well.

It must not be too popular. I asked for Shoretel info from this board months ago and got one response. I hear good things about it from industry rags but nothing from the interconnects.

One of our local computer vendors picked it up and entered the wonderful world of phone systems sales and service. They merged shortly afterward with a local phone system dealer and they now offer Shoretel but i don't run up against them much at all. The owner tells me it is a slick system.

we're going ShoreTel. have demo'd and played with it for a couple of months. 1st small store went in well a month ago in Washington, no complaints. installing a 50-phone system this week in central California. will do another eight or ten sites this year, I'm told. will try and remember to keep this BBS updated.

royb- complete your profile so that others may ask questions and send info. Email and web address. Glad to hear the install went well. Keep us updated.

I have been a ShoreTel reseller for over three years. System is by far the most stable, scalable, and redundant system on the market. Let me know if I can help you in any way.

45 IP phone install in Sacramento went very well. the only problems encountered so far have been network/traffic related. very busy site, 512k IP-frame circuit. prioritized all tcp and udp to and from the server, seems to have settled down nicely. (problem was delayed screen refresh when hitting feature keys). voice quality has been very good. zero out-of-box failures on the phones (which is soooo much better than my other brand of pbx).

I install our third site next week, another 20 users, more as it happens, if you're interested. (so far, so good). admin is fabulous.........

Ha! Spoke too soon. Disclaimer: Old voice guy who maybe doesn't know what he doesn't know. In the past month, many problems have come out of the woodwork. The ShoreTel system itself seems pretty stable, admin is a breeze, users are happy with that part of it. However, other WAN 'shortcomings' become very apparent when voice is added to the stream, and to the users it looks like phone system problems. Tools to monitor are costly; Troubleshooting can be tricky due to the 'spiky' nature of WAN traffic; QoS might work, but doesn't appear to work too well in a busy environment (hence the phrase "no substitution for bandwidth"). We've (temporarily) put a traffic shaper into the loop to overcome QoS' limitations while we evaluate/discuss/decide. (I anticipate having to buy lots more bandwidth to support VoIP.) Sorry, this isn't meant to be a blog -- just don't go into VoIP without being ready to spend $$$ up front, during, after -- it's not the panacea of cost savings that VoIP marketing departments suggest it is. (We thought we were ready). More later, if you're interested......

Good followup. I have been right where you have been, luckilly I have enough data background from the old days to understand all the crap that is flying around a network. Unless you got that baby locked down ala Novell or Unix you are going to see some real weird things if you have a packet sniffer.

Thanks for following up. Great info. Keep us posted in your upcoming adventures.

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Business Phone Systems

Hey, royb, how have things been lately? I'm interested to see how things are working lately with your system.



[This message has been edited by TechGuy (edited August 25, 2005).]

excerpts from what I mailed techguy yesterday. brethren, I would spare you some unsettling, painful moments, sorry if it's long and tedious...

...By coincidence, we just came from a meeting with our local ShoreTel distributor, and with ShoreTel's CEO. Good meet, ShoreTel seems committed to having a great product with great support. Their CEO said during the meet that they have some 2,000 systems with 250,000 telephones installed.

ShoreTel has a good product, has been stable, users like it, easy to install and maintain. Great features: Users really like the Personal Call Manager and the Operator Call Manager. We like the prospect of being able to share telephone answering between sites, and 4-digit dialing between sites has the users spoiled. I've worked with ShoreTel's tech support on a couple of issues, they've been very professional, quick to react, very good knowledge base.

We've recently done a slow-down on the deployment, however, as we re-evaluate our position: Going in to this whole VoIP thing, we didn't know what we didn't know about our data network, and our vendor was a little timid about up-front network evaulation (and discussing associated costs, is my guess), which would have been a very smart investment on our part. So it's been a painful process, this tweaking of the data network, learning what it can do to voice communications -- not because of ShoreTel, but because our network wouldn't have been ready for any VoIP system to be trouble-free (hence the meeting). I heartily recommend spending $$$ early to fully and intimately evaluate your data network -- routers, switches, the type and bandwidth of WAN links to your interfaces (ppp, frame-relay, ip-frame relay, mpls), etc. QOS is critical, and not all types of WANs and clouds support QOS. It's really looking to us like point-to-point T1's and the MPLS product is the way to go for VoIP. Also, we've installed IP phones for every user to make it a little easier on the network (no analog-digital conversion as with analog phones; IP traffic routes directly from phone to phone). Have your vendor do a close inspection of any office/s with more than about forty voicemail users, too, as voicemail traffic affects the network just like real-time calls do. (Temporarily, we hope, we have installed a Distributed Voicemail Server at one of our larger sites while we bulk-up bandwidth/move from IP-Frame to MPLS, and continue to learn and tweak.) A long paragraph, sorry. Bottom line -- the vast majority of our problems have been network related: us learning the weaknesses of our data network, learning how to find and troubleshoot and repair those weaknesses. With VoIP, network weakness results in poor call quality.

As you go forward, have your vendor show you what happens when the WAN goes down. ..... Which reminds me, upgrades have been a breeze.... Oh, and get tough with your vendor -- tell him/her that s/he should get tough with you, too, and not be afraid to call it right if they find any weakness in your network. You just don't need the headaches......

We have four sites installed (Washington and California, with a Headquarters server in Oregon), I'd guess close to 100 telephones. Remote troubleshooting is great, and ShoreTel tech support folks can do even more remote troubleshooting in pretty amazing ways.

As part of our newly-realized call for due-diligence, we're now also looking at Cisco, and hope to have our first budgetary numbers in the next few days. This will go a long way towards leading us to a long-term VoIP supplier --- we already have seven more sites (200+ users) just waiting-in-the-wings for us to decide who we'll go with. Cisco has done their song-and-dance, too, and the local vendor seems very knowledgeable, very strong. Doing the money thing first, then we'll evaluate how it installs, maintains, repairs.

Not experts, yet, but getting better at this thing.


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Royb,
Just wondering...Do you think that this system will save you money or cost you more?

What real advantages have you gotten from going with an all IP system verses a traditional system?

I have installed/maintained phone systems since 1988 and I'm really having a hard time seeing the advantage of going with an all I.P. system.

If you have to upgrade your entire I.P. network just to accommodate your new phone system, how long will it take for an actual ROI?

Also, why are you considering switching to Cisco after you've started the rollout?

Honestly, I've never seen a ShoreTel product and do not know it's strengths and weaknesses. 2000 systems with an average of 125 phones seems like a growing company.

Please don't think I'm being critical. I would truly like to know the advantages/disadvantages from someone who has actually installed/maintained a pure I.P. system. I'm getting older and need to know if I'm missing something or if I'm just stuck in the old school.

Thank you,
Larry


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North Florida Communications

advantages that I see of VoIP -- besides the centralized/unified voicemail (others are doing this, too), we can actually share answering duties between sites transparent to the caller. lets managers allocate people power in new ways.

why we're even looking at VoIP -- our Nortel systems are aging....upgrading is not inexpensive....Nortel distributors are lacking and expensive....intangible, but Nortel has been in a bit too much hot water, laid off too many people to be real cozy with (perception being everything, as they say).

why Cicso now? -- street stories had always had it that Cisco is too complex and too expensive to install and maintain. one day a new Cisco factory rep paid us a cold-call, we figured we'd be polite for twenty minutes (we already are a Cisco house for routers and most LAN switches)....two hours later we were setting up a meet so he could bring back a voice engineer. that meeting also ran several hours. it came down to the mindset that we needed to look again at Cisco, if for nothing else than having truly done our due diligence before we spend a zillion bucks. we're a fifty site company, and growing, so we're not so far into ShoreTel that we couldn't do a turnabout, if needs be. Cisco is not a shoo-in, we're just about to have our first budgetary/planning meet. if there's sticker shock, this thing could go 'round yet again.

VoIP save money? -- the marketers will tell you "yes". long distance is cheap, though, so you'd be hard-pressed indeed to recoup the costs necessary to beef-up the network to support voice. VoIP is strong for the new ways people can communicate; the ways the system is managed/administered gets simpler; the new ways to spread-around labor -- not to replace people, but to allow more efficient call handling and customer service. no, I don't think VoIP is cheaper at all, but I do think it's inevitable (I've got a lot of Norstars and Option systems that I can run pretty cheap, and very trouble-free). Nortel End-Of-Life is forcing our hand on the Option systems, though, which forces new considerations for old ways of doing business.

by the way, I'm a voice guy, too, since the early eighties. Certainly no VoIP expert or network expert, but getting better. I started studying Cisco a couple of years ago when it looked like it could become a matter of survival; I'm a relocated Silicon Valley guy who lived through a bunch of ups and downs (read: layoffs and plant closures in the high tech world), learned that a person had better be marketable, with current skills that are needed, if s/he's going to feed the family on a regular basis. End here, we'll be needing the BBQ and some good red wine if we're going to wax philosophical. Hope this helps, let me know, if not.

Regards
royb


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Thank you for your response, Royb.

I use and manage this system every day. I love it!

Abu- How big is your Shoretel install? I am very interested in the product but I am having difficulty finding sites of 100-150 phones or greater. This equipment gets great writeups in industry mags...but I'd rather get info from endusers/managers. Thanks.

Can anyone provide any updates? I am currently involved in due diligence on replacing our current outdated phone systems. Company has muliple locations from GA to AZ. Am really impressed with the Shoretel solution for ease of management and functionality, as opposed to Cisco Avaya, or Inter-Tel. Have seen the demo and read the rags. Any imput regarding Shoretel and why you decided to go with it would be appreciated.
Lots of info in this forum. Thanks!

I'm up to 4 sites, 106 users in 3 states. I'm off next week to install 3 more sites, about 75 more users. Early December our HQ site, another 125 users. I finally got to ShoreTel's install class last month, will get to their advanced troubleshooting school mid-December: Easy installs, easy admin -- only trouble we've had has been network-related, not ShoreTel. Even their upgrades are smooth. I find their tech support folks great to work with, the whole crew at their HQ very customer friendly. (I'm an end-user, not a Distributor or ShoreTel employee).

We're replacing Nortel, and did look at Cisco. We know about, but elected not to look at NEC and Avaya.

You other users, please respond, too. ShoreTel tells me they're trying to put together a User Group, and I've not found another active one elsewhere.

PS: ShoreTel6 is released, but only recently. We're giving it some time to settle before we upgrade to this -- no problems heard, just letting the dust settle, as it were. This is the release that pushes display services (and some other functions) down to the local switch level, which makes WAN problems much easier to deal with.

Thanks Royb. Are the Shoreware apps intuitive and easy for the users to grasp? Are you using any ACD functionality over the WAN? Any call center environments in your locations, and if so, are your users using handsets or the softphones?
From your earlier posts, you indicated that you were exploring Cisco again. Was it sticker shock that drove you back to Shoretel?
Would you have time for an email or two? I have other questions that would take up more time than is available here.
Thanks!

Apps: Most users have the Call Manager client, we're moving them to the Advanced Call Manager client -- it helps them to know the status of the telephone they're about to transfer a call to; Receptionists have the Operator Call Manager -- allows them to see the real-time status of up to 250 telephones on their PC (and clever ways to manipulate the window -- their PC can still multi-task just fine). Most users quickly grasp the concepts of the apps -- and really like the Outlook contact integration. Folks who aren't comfortable with a PC will have a steeper/longer learning curve.

ACD: I am using Hunt Groups for department-level call distribution, which are site-specific; we'll begin using Workgroups (ShoreTel's default, simple ACD system) when we have multiple receptionists answering calls across the WAN. I see probable uses for more Workgroups, need to teach my management how to think outside the traditional PBX box. ShoreTel does have a large Call Center app, we don't need it with how we presently operate, won't be buying it in the foreseeable future.

Cisco: we could almost get the Cisco hardware pricing down to ShoreTel levels...but the annual support fees were a real killer. ShoreTel wins. (After looking at router IOS settings of a small Cisco install, I'm happy about this).

Softphone: Very few users will have the softphone app. I use it and like it myself (gotta love that Plantronics CS50-USB). It is an extra cost, and most of our folks aren't comfortable without a real handset to hold on to.

Feel free to email me. I have lots of road trips/long hours coming up, so bear with my slow responses. I'm installing in California's central valley next week, if anyone wants to see it go in. Seattle in January. Other west-coast areas before and after.

Thanks Royb. Great info. Appreciate the invite to see the install. Keep us informed.

ShoreTel got Business Communications Review, "2005, Easiest to Use IP-PBX, Large Systems." It is the easiest system on the market today, it literally takes less than 30 seconds to add a new user, giving them extension, priviliages, call center rights, voice mail, unified messaging, CDR, etc... The system has been tested to 10,000 ports. The hardware is the same whether the customer has 10 phones or 10,000 telephones. No such thing as forklift upgrade with ShoreTel. The architecture is unlike any other equipment on the market. In a multi-location environment the story becomes much more compelling.

I'm interested in becoming a Shoretel Channel Partner. I am a startup business with personal experience in the telecom industry. What qualification procedures does Shoretel use for their channel partners? Do they require a business to have previous VAR experience? Must a business have already attained certain revenue milestones?

Dang Progolf did you make that up, are you copying a brochure or is your management postion with a company named Shoretel?????? The architecture is unlike any other equip on the market??????????In the words of a once famous TV detective..."just the facts mamn, just the facts".

Telcomtex...I do not work for ShoreTel....but I do sell the product. Seriously, tell me what other equipment has a similiar architecture.

Altigen! :thumb:

So I start with 10 phones. I can add 9,990 phones witthout touching the hardware? Sign us uP Dude!!!

brokeda...you forgot about the licenses...doh :toothy:

ALTIGEN....R U kidding me...that is a server based architecture......."just the facts man, just the facts".

Hey we all have our favorite system! I was just amused by the copy and paste of the sales brochure. No offense intended. :toothy:

Good point Mark

= :sleep:

I am looking at Shoretel, Cisco and Altigen to replace our aging phone system. I see there has been some great debate compaing these systems. Is there any specific details that make one stand out over the other? Some one commented that AltiGen was a poor choice based on hardware. I had read a number of positive things about Altigen and the system seemed pretty easy and flexible. It is on a Windows platform which I think is a negative also the Outlook integrations is not as strong as Shoretel. I do not plan to do VoIP but have regular T's for phone traffic so the WAN stuff should not be an issue. Any comments would be appreciated. THank you.

We sell and install Altigen so obviously we will appear biased. The system has become quite a robust one. The fact that it is based on a Windows platform has proved to be a benefit, allowing the most complex system features (those requiring a technician/programmer call out with other systems)to be programmed via the good old point and click. Of the three you have mentioned Altigen has been in the telephone business the longest I do believe having been providing telephone systems since 1996. I will not point to the other sytems negatively or positively as I have not installed them. I chose the Altigen system, when looking for a dealership for a system with voip capabilty, for three reasons.
(1)Ease of installation
(2)Ease of Operation and
(3)Ease of upgrade/expansion
I strongly recommend that you speak in length to customers of each and if possible choose customers that have had their respective systems in place for at least a year. Ask them questions regarding return on investment, on going costs for upgrades and system changes, and finally ask about features (call recording, call mangement, etc...).
It is all about due dilligence. Afterall it is a significant investment and a little research can save a lot of heartache.
If you would like more info feel free to pm or email me.

Do you want to own a system or do you want the system to own you?

If you are not going to have VOIP then why are you looking at any of these systems?

I do not intend to direct my telcom traffic over the interne, VOIP, I do want the features and functioanlity of IP phones with the integration into Outlook etc. A traditional phone system does not offer the sort of flexibility that the IP solutions do. It seems to me that VOIP has been tagged to several differnt definitions. One is directing your traffic over the internet as popularized with Vonage and the like. The second seems to refer to the IP PBX.

if you are not going to use remote phone, mulit-site and soft phone why pay 2x for the same thing?

Not sure I understand your question. Traditional PBX is on the way out, more costly to maintain and fails to offer the sort of integration an IP solution offers. Most of the references I have spoken to do not direct the majority of their traffic over the Internet.

When I got in this business 21 years ago, 80% of the market was six lines or less and I would guess that it is still relatively close.

I'm on voip but that is because I am paying my ISP $60 for what I used to pay SBC $120 after I switched from Verizon that was somethingover $160. The Sipura boxes feed off my same old DSL and I feed them into a Toshiba CIX 100. That is voip without all the sip stuff.

All these VOIP only systems and the Key/voip combos are going to go to 20% of the market. At least that is until you get phones with voice announce intercom, off hook voice announce, lots of buttons, etc.

There are going to be 8 line key systems manufactured for a long, long time. Adding on some VOIP capability to larger systems is happening, but not wholesale replacement of key for voip, and it won't for the forseeable future.

But then I could be wrong, I was married twice.

Oh, maintainance. If you spill water on your pbx phone, you can swap it with another in a minute. Try that with a voip phone that has to be reprogrammed.

We have had so few bad phones and cards that anyone who has to complain about maintainance is selling junk or gets two lightening strikes a week.

And yes, we did just loose our largest customer to a VOIP, and only because Samsung's biggest hunt group was limited to 48 and they needed 80 or more. Such is life.

Bunny,

Not dissagreeing with you necessarily but, fyi

"At least that is until you get phones with voice announce intercom, off hook voice announce, lots of buttons, etc."

Already out there!!! I can even intercom and voice announce to remote sites.


"Oh, maintainance. If you spill water on your pbx phone, you can swap it with another in a minute. Try that with a voip phone that has to be reprogrammed."

ahh, the ONLY thing I have to enter on my sip phones is the mac address and then click a single button for the template I want to use.
CO lines, and call appearences for the station are automaticvally added when I plug the phone in. If I swap out a phone in an Avaya or Panny I have to reprogram the phone the new phone doesn't get the programming from the PBX.

As for your water spill - well this could happen to any phone, but my experience is that very few sub 30 users keep a stack of extra phones on hand "just in case". We, at leat I do, get calls at least once a week to have a phone shipped over night. While on the sip system I can just go to xten, download and install the free version in about 2 minutes and I am talking with full access!

Shoretel aka shoreline is adding features at a rapid pace. One could say that is one of the problems with the system lately. Initially, the reliability was rock solid. The transition to IP phones has been difficult. The TAPI call manager beats the buttons on anyone's BRI phone anyday. Some people however will never, ever use a PC to do any telephony applications. Thats where pushing features out to IP phones is critical. Ive been involved in quite a few larger installations so if anyone has quesitons, post them here and Ill try to answer.

Not a big fan of the Rube Goldberg solution. No one can support it!

Thanks for the input. I like the Shoretel solution also. Has anyone looked at Sphere? If so what do you think of this solution?

I am of the opinion that Cisco offers the best future. They are more expensive, in some cases significantly, in my case they have pretty much matched the Shoretel pricing. The problem is the integration with the desktop is clunky. The features,(like read back Voice Mail and applications to the phone ), are not a big deal at this point for us. I also don't like how they store Voice Mails in yourt EMail account. THis creates storage issues. In the end they are investing more than most, have a great reputation and the money to stay in the game for a long time.

Not a big fan of the Rube Goldberg solution? What?

Who is there that would give up a ring diode matrix that is as stable as an elephant in a gentle breeze?

Have you no idea how many ITT cut off switches have been sold? Why the very idea.

I would say that we do predominently small customers and a friend of mine loves installing and maintaining Shoretel. I'm not far from slowing down a lot, so I'm really not in the busioness of maintaining switches for Fortune 500 customers.

At some point I will sell off the customer base and do enough sales calls to keep body and soul together. I am not one of those young whippersnappers that are strong on data and there will always be a need for salespeople.

I have a hosted Cisco 7960 in my office as part of a sales demo thing and it is OK, but it has such limits on stuff I want that I wouldn't yank out my Toshiba CIX if I could get a free Cisco. If I wanted to link sites with large ACD applications then it would be a totally differt ball game.

I wasn't trying to put down the systems such as Cisco, Shoretel, and such but they are not inexpensive and unless they scale down their price to fit the people who want a dozen phones, key systems will be around for a very long time.

I would say that it is very informational to read what you have posted and that is a very good service to a lot of people.

Thanks, Bunnie

This may be late in coming...

We installed a predictive dialer behind a Shortel (1st one we've run into) and things were up and going in a couple of house - no problems. Which makes me probably more happy than the customer.

I've been selling and installing ShoreTel for almost 5 years now. If anyone would like unbiased info on the system, email me at [email protected].

I have received information from ShoreTel that each switch can have only 8 huntgroups. Is anyone doing anything that requires many inbound call flows with auto attendants directing VM to accounts accessed by multiple users?

Currently we are using IP Office and allowing access to VM boxes by multiple users can only occur using huntgroup VM boxes. Is ShorTel's huntgroup different from Avaya's?

I have encountered a Shoretel and what I saw was slicker than snot on a glass doorknob. I have a customer in DM Iowa who is a distrbutor of a product made in California. They wanted to link their phone systems together, so that support calls could be transferred from IA to CA. My customer in DM has a Norstar 4.1 and the CA customer has a Shoretel.

They wanted high quality voice between the two sites, so VoIP through the internet was out of the question. The CA company bought a shoretel device that will communicate with a nortel via T1 emmulation(we could have done PRI, but caller info was not needed for this application). Then the Shoretel box is hooked up to a point to point data circuit back to the main Shoretel in CA. They get 24 tie lines from a Nortel MICS to a Shortel device.

I set up a routing table where DM customer dials the a 4 digit extension and the routing table routes these calls to the Shoretel in CA, Like wise, I set up target lines to hit the extensions in DM from the Shoretel in CA. Both customers have seemless 4 digit extension dialing and call transferring across the sites. They split the pricey cost of the point to point, so far as I know everyone is happy.

I didn't have to program the Shoretel at all, but when it came to programming the Nortel side, it was a snap. I went to the Shortel website and downloaded the documents from their website on how they liked the T1 on the Nortel side to be programmed so it would work with the Shoretel device. It also looked like this Shoretel would interface with just about anything and easy too. I liked their website and most of what I saw. I am pretty Nortel biased, too.

CaptainSnapple:

ShoreTel has a couple of solutions to handle inbound calls. You are correct in stating that you can only have 8 hunt groups per switch (switches can be stackable--so do not confuse "switch" as one location).

The slickest way is to set up what ShoreTel refers to as "Workgroups". If agents have what is referred to as "Agent Call Manager" then they get get as visual notification of a VM message that is left in a workgroups mailbox. This notification can either be programmed on a soft key on the IP phone model 530 or 560. The best way to get voice mail messages left in workgroups VM box is through the ShoreTel "VoiceMail Viewer." Employees part of the Workgroup that have Agent Call Manager will be able to see New Messages, Old Messages, and Deleted Messages in all the Workgroups that they are a part of. You can have up to 128 Workgroups per ShoreTel system.

The most compelling aspect of the ShoreTel system is your workgroups can be distributed across multiple locations. For example, I could have a Sales Workgroup queue and agents can be located in California, Florida, New York....anywhere on the Network...in an branch office...in a home...wherever. In the latest release...I can be located in my house...VPN to network and tell the system that I am located at my house, hotel, cell phone and get workgroup calls via the PSTN..At this point it is toll quality voice...not IP...but you have to pay for the call.

This is all inherit in the ShoreTel system....they are no add-on adjuncts for this functionality....Only a small one-time licensing fee.

I am a CCVP, I have a lot of experience in the Cisco side of things and also managed a Definity 8700 for a couple of years. Most of my experience is in the enterprise level system and contact centers. I recently took a job as a VoIP business consultant to try and get a Computer Consultants VoIP side of the business off the ground. We had a lot of problems with Cisco, with tyring to sell CallManager, and who knows what 3com is up to with their NBX so we needed another solution. We took a look at what Shoretel had to offer and I have to say I fell in love with the system quick! We are now Shoretel partners and starting the sell the Shoretel solution. I love the features, the contact center part of the Shoretel solution blows a Definity out of the water and the price, ease of setup, and features blow Cisco out of the water (although I love Cisco phones). I have been so happy with the Shoretel solution that I am not thinking about moving in a year just so I can start my own company and sell the Shoretel product.

I have had rumors of Financial challenges for Shoretel. I really like the product but wonder about their long term viability. Anyone have any insights into the condition of the company? What does the staff look like, are they gaining speed with installs, is Revenue growing, how many employees and how do these items compare with prior years.

Thank you

I think the last I heard they had 145 employees around the world (which is not much). They are a private company though so they do not share finances. When we became a partner we talked to their CFO. They still have a lot of Venture Capital cash left over so they are not hurting for money at the moment, but since it was a company 100% funded by Venture Cap money, they will be wanting their money back in one of two ways (usually) Shoretel will either need to be sold within the next coupld of years or go public. The CFO said they are looking to go public in 2007 and they are taking their time to doing it right. If you have been reading any of the trade journals you will see that Shoretel is the industry darling right now. Now history has shown a lot of companies that have a great product that can't stay in business. But it really does seem like Shoretel is taking their time to do things right! They have a quality product, they stopped selling direct and moved to a partner only service. I talked to about 12 partners or so around the US when I was investigating and all of them love the product. I think Shoretel is working to get the name recognition now. It really is an awesome product, so I hope it really takes off. As I said in my post above it really is better than Avaia and Cisco. It is much different, but it really is a quality product that is well thought out. My only complaint is that compared to Cisco, Shoretel's phones are really ugly!

Thanks. I think the product is a terrific option. I have looked at AltiGen, Cisco, Sphere and ShoreTel. All of them have something to offer, but I think the ShoreTel is the most complete. I don't paticularly care for their phones either but they have excellant sound quality. I have seen a number of very positive articles regarding Shoretel and they don't appear to be advertising pieces which is useful. Cisco has a great product as well and they are very aggresive in offering discounts and incentives but I think this is indicative of an attempt to get to Smaller, not GM or Boeing, type companies. I think this also indicates that in the long run Cisco will be a more expensive solution to maintain, ( either in technical skill requirements or in future upgrade of the system ). But Cisco is putting a huge amount into R&D and ShoreTel, the smaller company, can't compete at this level. AS they are not Public at some point one has to wonder what will become of ShoreTel. As you indicated it is either an IPO or Sale and this could be good or bad. I have heard that there have been a number of management changes and if you look on their web site there are not many Exec's that have been there too long. As they are not Public there is not much financial info either like Sales, Revenue growth or profitability.

That was our biggest fear at becoming a partner, but after talking to other partners on how easy the system is to sell, I think that sold me. I did not let Shoretel give me references either, I just did a google search for Shoretel partner and started calling.

Cisco is a great product, but a full callmanager install is very expensive, and callmanager express is a terrible product. Cisco is a little harder to manage in that it is two apps, callmanager and unity. So you have to set a new user up in different places. Shoretel sets up fast and is easy to add a new users. From a network infrastructure point of view though your understanding of QOS in switches and routers would have to be the same. Shoretel will try and tell you, you really don't need to do QOS, but I think it is something that always should be done on the converged network. To keep our partnership with Cisco strong here we always sell Cisco switches and routers with the Shoretel system.

As you pointed out Cisco is not going anywhere, what is holding Cisco back a bit at this point is they consider a small business to be under 1000 employees. Also Cisco makes it imposible for the smaller phone provider to sell full Call Manager, they will also not hesitate to pull a customer out of a small company and bring it to a big one. This is why Shoretel partnership is really growing. I think at this rate the only Cisco vendors you are going to find are the really big vendors, which I think is very sad. Another thing that Cisco is doing that is really messing with the smaller vendors is the new Linsys One system, it looks like they are really pushing that to be a replacement to call manager express, but they are only selling the product through service providers. Bottom line is Cisco needs to fix they way they treat their vendors very soon much as Microsoft did several years ago, or people are not going to want to sell the product.

Excellent points! The Shoretel guys were planning on selling me a netgear POE switch, I have an HP and was planning on that or Dell. The Cisco's seem to expensive. My comment about "Technical expertise" were garnered from the cost of the install, ( cisco was 2-3 times the cost of install as any of the others ) and because of the huge initial discounts when I add stations or options it will cost considerably more than the others.

Yeah I would never use the netgear, I would like to get a Dell though at play with it, for the price and features it looks like it has promise. I have used the non PoE verion of the Dell switches and never had problems. You should also look that the HP procurves. They are Cisco switches but are half the price. 3com has some really good POE swithces too. Also cisco has the new 500 series of switch that has a decent price point.

Sacramento with 150+ ShoreTel 530, 210, and 100 IP phones. Currently evaluation whether or not to add ACD package. End users love the system! Basic admin stuff are a breeze eventhough I still have never attended any ShoreTel admin classes...yet. About to upgrade to ShoreTel6 on Feb 15.
Lots of excessive packets loss and dont know what's the best way to solve this issue without costing the company too much $$. Suggestions??

Is you packet loss over a local LAN or do you have users connecting over a WAN connection that are experiencing the problem? IF a WAN, how many users over what type of connection? I probably won't be able to solve your problem, but I am reviewing the product and am curious about your packet loss.

PB, can you give us a little more info. What are you using for switches? As a10ecun pointed out are you experiencing excessive packet loss over the wan or lan. Also (not sure if I can post this here, if I can't i am sorry) have you tryed bringing your question to the Shoretel user group at https://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/shoretel/

Also have you tryed calling Shoretel on it? I am sure they will hvae you adjust your jitter buffer size. Give us the details of your infrastructure and I will see what I can do to help.

have found that the event 119 "excessive packet loss" is most often a bogus report. if you can't hear it in the phone call, I wouldn't believe it. if you CAN hear it, then yeah, it's real, spend time on it. for us, those very few instances of real packet loss have been found to be duplex mismatches that don't happen very often.

just installed site #14. we're at 300+ IP phones. users love ShoreTel's Personal Call Manager. no major glitches yet.

Sorry for the delay. All packets loss are over my local LAN. Oddly enough, I just upgraded to ShoreTel6 last night and so far no packets loss...yet.
My ShoreTel vendor has been advising me that separation of data and phone line will solve my issues.
I have 3 ShoreGear-120/24 Switches.

For those that are thinking of upgrading to ShoreTel6, don't do it yet. I'm experiencing a lot of little glitches since the upgrade last night.

Not trying to be a smarty here but, what's the point of VoIP if everything is seperate?

That's what I asked when Cisco started requiring separate phone and PC drops.

I think Cisco is looking to isolate ethernet powered ports to non powered ports so that the current load on the 48 port blades can be distributed for ip telsets or ip sets can use their own power supply dongle and not rely on the powered blades . So I think the powered inline ip phone to desktop is overloading their 48 port blades .

I have not investigated it lately but I recall reading that the newer Avaya IP switches could handle more traffic than the TDM switches. So there is a reason to have an IP switch other than just being able to save some money on circuits. Still have the problem of too many eggs in one basket. And with most data networks, the basket has a hole in it.

Richard

There is considerably more capacity, features and easy of use in an IP solution. I do not intend to direct my voice traffic over the internet, still using a T1, at least initially. The IP solution is integrated with Outlook, Offers users PC control of the phone, MAC are easier, the phones features follow you if you wish and the system is easier to manage. At least those are my reasons for making hte switch. Some of these things can be done with traditional TDM PBX's but it is not as easy to do.

Shoretel offers a complete solution that is receiving very good reviews. It is more expensive than some of the other solutions available but it also seems to be more robust and mature a solution.

I went to the ShoreTel web site and downloaded the IPT Guide offered there. Got a call this afternoon from ShoreTel. I'll talk to em and see what's up.
Here are my considerations:
1. 10 year old Avaya G3r. It's an old software release (7) But it works well and I anticipate it will do so for a long time.
2. We have 250 digital phones and almost 500 analog ports.
3. Could not use existing voice wire infrastructure.
4. Don't have voice cable where all the phones are.
5. Most of the existing data cable infrastucture is sub-par.
6. Existing LAN/WAN ehhhhhhh. Not so stable.
7. The existing phone system is paid for. I can't empasise that one enough.
8. But, there is the expensive maintenace contract with Avaya. $4k a month.
9. Have to retrain everyone how to use phones/voicemail.
10 Would I be more valuable in the marketplace knowing Avaya or ShoreTel?? I think Avaya.
Not sure I can justify trashing a working paid for system just to have the latest technology.

Richard

PS To upgrade the existing switch would cost about $180k.
I have NO idea what it would cost to put in a ShoteTel.

Your 500 analog ports are the killer. 5-1 ratio on IP phones to ports. 1-1 for analog.

Richard: Your experience with this is priceles for this board. A lot of real world issues that could make or break, not only your next phone switch deployment, but your pocketbook as well. You represent the gray area. Keep us posted.

PB,
Like royb said. the excessive packet loss is a bogus reporting error. Do you actually experience problems or just show a report that states 'excessive packet loss". Shoretel is aware of this mis report and should have it fixed soon.
Paul.

Wow that is going to be a tough one, however I think Shoretel is going to better serve that problem over other vendors. They still give you the best analog port options. It will be much cheaper to switch out to IP handsets, or break your projects down into stages like network first, start to implament Shoretel on a limited basis, build and how effeciancy gains using the styem (this is where you ROI will be) and then expand the system. Sounds like a fun project though!

You are being charged $4000 a month for a maintenece contract ! How often are they onsite doing covered repairs ?

Here's a Cisco vs Shoretel article I found.

https://www.tolly.com/TS/2002/Shore.../TollyWP202500Shoreline3Nov02-screen.pdf

Avaya has not been on site in about 6 months. I've been here 3 1/2 yrs and the only problems I've had with the switch has been the AUDIX voice mail back-up drive failing. We're under contract for another year.

Richard

Are you aware that ShoreTel offers Power User webinar courses? I believe it's currently being offered once a month. Some courses are for standard end-users but most are geared for more advance system users and system adminitrators? I've participated in a few already.

Hello All, new to these boards, but I've been in telecom for the last 12 years and specifically VoIP for the last two. Just one comment. I am the network architect for a voip orig/term provider and Shoretel just recently rolled out their SIP solution. Prior to this, it is my understanding that their VoIP was proprietary.

I believe that they are heading in the right direction, but there are a few anomalies. Just as an example, the system currently only supports IP based authentication to my softswitch, they are working on digest authentication but the current method really restricts your ability to use many, but not all, internet based termination/origination providers.

philpete,

You pointed some some very good points and as a certified ShoreTel tech I would caution those looking to run a SIP trunk to a ShoreTel system to really do their research! I have been playing with this stuff a lot lately and a lot of key features of the ShoreTel system are turned off with a SIP trunk. ShoreTel really is on the right track with their product and the new 6.1 features will enchance SIP trunking a little more. In our office we currently have our ShoreTel system working through our Call Manager system via SIP trunk and there are some limitations, but it works and both Cisco and ShoreTel told me it wouldn't!

I'm working on a Disaster Recovery plan for my company. Looking for some used equipment. Let me know if you know of any for sale:

1 ShoreGear 120/24 Voice Switch
2 ShoreGear T-1 Switches 23 Channels each


Thanks,
PB

You may want to try this company:

Morgen Industries, Inc.
501 Penhorn Avenue
Bldg. 1
Secaucus, NJ 07094
201.223.0072 ext.113
201.223.0073 fax
914.419.3954 cell
www.morgenindustries.com

They buy and sell older phone systems. They are the ShoreTel prefered company to work with. When I was on the phone with them last week and he mentioned he does get used ShoreTel equipment in.

Is Shoretel competing pricewise against Definity class system and Cisco, or the IP Office? I haven't been seeing realistic numbers at all from my Shoretel rep.

It is my understanding that it is actually less expensinve than Cisco and IP Office.....but you get what you pay for IMHO.

Steve

I have a 3 site, 100+ extension Shoretel deployment here in the central USA.

We have had it for nearly 2 years and have been plagued with issues since day one. We have had every sort of network tech, phone tech, provider tech and Shoretel themselves on site on several occasions and no one has been able to repair this thing.

Issues include, problems with communications over WAN links (MPLS PIP) volume pitching up and down, unreliable Softphone performance, DTMF tones not being registered on some systems and unreliable faxing.

We are on the verge of scrapping the whole system and moving to another solution such as Avaya or Cisco.

I will add however that if you are a very small (20 or so phones) on a single site then the Shoretel system makes it pretty easy to administer. However, if you need 50+ extensions at multiple sites, I suggest moving away from Shoretel.

I became an NBX dealer when they first came out, 1998 I believe, was partnered up with a Data Recovery company. We thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Just show the user and andmin interface, easy too sell. But no matter the size or software, or how much we spent on switches, there were problems. Ts always came up with use seperate cables for phones. I worked it hard for a year and half, we had lots of Certified people for Microsoft and Russian whiz kids that could do all kinds of tricks with Data. I realize that was a while back but I hear the same thing now from lots of places, a whiff trouble and it's "you need sep network" and a lot more bucks.

Over the last year this company went through alot of changes and so the old TIE system is still in place. I had been leaning towards Shoretel for our 35 person office as I liked the integration with Outlook, apparent ease of administration, feature sets and expadability. References also were strong.

I had looked at AltiGen, Cisco, Sphere as well. I have seen an increase in info on Avaya and also the Nortel BSM product.

I would be interested in opinions on these products and pros and cons if each if anyone is willig to share. I still favor Shoretel as it seems to be a well rounded system with a solid reputation. Some of the posts on this forum did not seem too enthusiastic about Shoretel or this product line in general. Perhaps it is good that we waited.

Thank you

We are a ShoreTel end-user for nearly two years, now, completely self-installed on the ShoreTel side of things. We have relied upon the valuable network expertise of our ShoreTel distributor to help us develop and learn the network strategies and skills required to keep VoIP happy. We don't call them much, any more, unless we find something that truly stumps us. Happily, that's an unusual occasion -- but it took a while. We have 29 sites in 4 states; 500+ users; 100+ analog devices (faxes, a few modems, etc). 99% of users have the IP530 or IP560 telephone. A wide mix of analog loop-start, analog DID, T1, PRI trunking. 3 or 4 of these sites exist merely to provide tie lines to existing Nortel PBXs (Option systems and Norstars), some using T1 and some using PRI tie lines.

Successful VoIP on the WAN runs over point-point T1s and MPLS. Early attempts at Frame Relay and Sprint's Sprintlink-Frame product just didn't pan out.

QoS is very important, of course. But it is amazing how critical a happy network is to VoIP communications. When call quality suffers, it's time to be checking error counts on every router involved, and even such simple things as half/full duplex negotiation on the network switches will have a huge impact -- and have to be looked at pretty regularly. And don't forget your bandwidth, you need your bandwidth.

The wise VoIP shopper will critically analyze his/her system and strategic needs -- and will dissect their network before implementing VoIP (!!!!). The wise VoIP seller will do the same -- it's your name that's at stake. In my experience, VoIP has some real benefits to the multi-site company. But it's more expensive to keep running: Your troubleshooters not only have to phone technicians (for the trunking issues, mostly), they have to be data technicians now, too (for the WAN and LAN issues), and PC technicians now, too (for the bells and whistles on the user PC), and know servers now, too ('cause it all hinges on the servers). Windows Server 2003 is more stable than 2000, but none of it runs forever.

You'd better have access to someone who can find that problem, and who can successfully argue and urge and politely insist that the carrier whose trouble it is get the darned thing fixed. The vast majority of our problems have been WAN problems. If your troubeshooter is a vendor, then I can imagine that money will need to change hands every time the WAN gets into trouble. The larger customer will likely hire his/her own in-house expertise.

A couple of years into this thing, I still believe the ShoreTel product really is a good product, with great new strategies available in the manipulation and delivery of voice telephony. The bottom line remains: If you are going to spend money on this business-critical technology (whether traditional telephony or VoIP), you had better do your homework. And don't be shy or hesitant in setting up a good ol' informal face-to-face with the folks trying to sell you this stuff. Get past the sales fluff, and figure out if you can trust 'em well enough to keep you in business. Same thing for you distributors -- we customers don't always know what questions to ask, and can be real intimidated by the monies and complexities involved, so you have to know how not to let the deal get set up for failure.

Hope this helps. Keep the discussion going -- it really helps to know what's going on out there.

Dear Cangin,

I work for ShoreTel and would like to discuss your experience with the system. None of our customers should have to experience what it seems you have.

In the six years I have worked here, our goal is 100% reference-able customers, of any size and it seems we have fallen short here.

Please contact me at [email protected]. Thanks,

Steve

----------------------------------------

LLCoach
I was glad to see someone from Shortel step up and address this.
Has there been any progress? What seems to be/have been the problem(s)?

Richard

bump

I would look at the MPLS and how it is setup, because there is no reason why the ShoreTel shouls not work properly on an correctly config MPLS. Did you go to MPLS just for the ShoreTel install? You should take a look at Packeteer.

i work for a law firm that installed shoretel 2 years prior to me starting there. i am used to nortel and avaya, but the shoretel seems to be a quick easy way to get a phone system up. on the other hand we have had many strange problems on many different occasions. i am the network engineer and i would like to know if there is anyone on here that knows how to configure a cisco 3750 to handle shoretel traffic. i have the auto qos turned on and i think that should do the trick but i want to eliminate the network switches from the equation

Gabriel,
Please start a new topic post for your question.
Hi-jacking a year old post with a new query causes problems for future users using the search function.

Welcome to the board.
Mark

We are a Shoretel dealer, it has some short cummings. The Mitel Voip system is much more powerful, it will and can do anything.
The shoretel in my opinion is a basic VOIP system.
The main problem of shoretel is, it is only as reliable as the windows operating system it is running on. suseptable to virus's and everything a windows based product can get.
Mitel is linux based, very stable.
The shortel teleworker phones work like ****.
Mitels, with no VPN they sound awesome.
Mitel is more expesive to maintain because of the complexity.
Shortel is very easy to maintain and IT guys will love it, If you want a basic VOIP system and you want to maintain it yourself. I think it is a good choice.

This is the only advantage of the shoretel system over another product

Editted for language content.

go Hybrid, inhouse should not be on voip period...

Only when you network to off site should you be using Voip

Toshiba, Avaya, panasonic

found this pic on another thread

I only see Cisco IP Phones in the photo. Not Shoretel

jvc57 had questions about ShoreTel. My experience with ShoreTel:

You'll see the history in this thread: Our 1st ShoreTel system installed May 2005. We purchase the hardware, I install 'em all. We are an end-user, not a Partner.

As of June 1 2007, ShoreTel statistics:
32 Sites are now ShoreTel. 4 of these sites are purely for Nortel interfacing. (We take care of 60 sites, overall)
5-6 more sites are due to be ShoreTel by Q4 2007 (including 2 of the 4 Nortel interface sites above)
70 ShoreTel switches are installed (ShoreTel switches, not LAN switches)
772 Extensions
547 Mailboxes (meaning ~225 devices not used by the typical every-day user. fax machines, lobby phones, cordless, etc)
1 HQ Server
2 Distributed Servers
We are in full license compliance

We have ShoreTel in 4 states
We are now a combination of ppp and MPLS circuits -- a big step to take over the last couple of years (remember Frame Relay, and frame of other flavors?)

We use Cisco routers, IOS release 12.1 or better for VoIP
We use some HP Procurve, mostly Adtran Netvanta PoE switches for VoIP
We use battery-backup at all VoIP sites (and nearly all sites, everywhere). PoE switches and battery backup means ShoreTel phones keep working during power outages
We use the ShoreTel IP530 (now discontinued) and IP560 telephones

Traffic May 1 to June 1, 2007
Total calls in the ShoreTel system to outside trunks 236,994
(Inbound 122,781, Outbound 114,213)
Total calls in the ShoreTel system that traveled over the WAN 38,714. Vast majority will be extension-to-extension
(Until we can find that great proactive and/or real-time network analyzing tool (that's affordable, and works), I am trying to be gentle on the WAN -- could allow a full Least Cost Routing to take full advantage of the WAN, afraid of overload -- don't have the time to monitor closely. May take baby steps one day, when (if) I have time to experiment)

By and large, I find our users love this system, and they spread the word. As I travel about our various locations, more and more people are exicted, aniticipating the day that they can be on this system

Trouble history
Most voice-quality troubles are Wan-based, some LAN-based, very few are ShoreTel hardware-based or ShoreTel software-based. (I think I could count on one hand the times I have had to call out for ShoreTel help)
I try to reboot all servers once per month to prevent trouble. Sometimes I'm not timely enough, strange troubles happen. Reboot fixes quickly. Not heavenly, but there are worse things happen in the world.
No real complaints. Does take closer watching of the network to keep voice happy, bad if you don't have in-house expertise, IMO. Not scary, new. Learning curve can be high for us old phone guys. Not insurmountable. Worth learning.

"I try to reboot all servers once per month to prevent trouble."

Now that pretty much sums it up


Walter

Thanks for the update RoyB. Sounds like it's working well for your needs. Shoretel is one of the few IP systems I haven't played with yet.

I agree, walterv, but whadayagonna do? seems most everybody's servers run on MS, it's not just a ShoreTel thing. I do my share of cussing Mr. Gates and crew, too. I don't have the options of trying other OS products that some may have. not sure I would want to get too far off the main stream, though, even with the known trouble areas. on the "bleeding edge" can be a scary place.

regards
royb

One of the pluses to the shoretel is that if the server goes down the only thing that goes down is the VM. All voice calls will process still just no voicemail until the Server comes back up.

I have worked with Shoretel for six months and find it to be a very sound system; out of the box it can do a lot more then most of the IP based systems.
ALLN1: vm is not all you will lose if the server goes down, you will lose your auto-attn, any work groups, route points. But you are going to have faults with any system if you really look hard enough.

royb -

I have never worked with Shoretel so I have no idea about the product. But in reading you thread it seems to me the problem lies in the MPLS cloud. Let me give you as simple a description as I can. If you have MPLS sites that have a CIR of say 1.54 symmetrical and your head end is a 10 meg pipe, when the 10 meg pipe communicates back to the T1 site the site gets overwhelmed. The same thing happens when two T1 sites are communicating to the same T1 site the remote site gets overwhelmed. If you are not marking packets BEFORE they enter the MPLS cloud AND you carrier is honoring those markings within the cloud you will be continually plagued with these issues. The same thing happens when you have a DS-3 communicating back to a DS-1 with frame-relay. You have to deploy some sort of mechanism (BECNs) to circumvent the issue. Many carriers will be able to do this for you. Here is the syntax for the markings (your carrier may use something else).

!
policy-map wsu_qos
class voice_transport
priority 192
set dscp ef
class voice_control
bandwidth 8
set dscp af31
class class-default
fair-queue
set dscp default
!

CANGIN - Interesting that you had a problem with a simple 100 phone deployment. Has anyone done a network eval for you? Has QOS been implemented properly? We have several 400 + shoretel systems and have no problems. Sounds like maybe the dealer didn’t do there homework before deploying your system. Even we have requirements that customer along with our data group or the data group of the customer’s choice has to meet before install.

Welcome to the board. Please note the dates on the posts. You are responding to a 3 year old post.

Just out of curiosity how does Shore-tels Phones laid out? I come from a primarily Tadiran and Mitel VOIP background where 20+ Buttons are common on their IP Phones, these are Busy Lamp field buttons, Status of Forwarding indicators, controlled from the PBX, not speed dial or code saved in the phones config. Anyone else have statics on VOIP sets with usuable buttons?

I too work on Tadiran as well as other TDM and hybrid systems. I also work on Shoretel
One thing that I find with TDM switches is that there IP phones are more robust than Shoretel's where buttons are concerned.
However, I have yet to see a Call Manager that matches the Shoretel's from any TDM switch.

The one issue with the Shoretel phones' button programming is the lack of forwarding indicators for hunt groups and a lighted button on all phones for a monitored mailbox.

That is the whole purpuse of the client software (PCM). If you use the call manager you dont need the buttons, lights, or even pickup your handset.
You can do and see everything from your desktop.
Why would anyone spend $400 for a phone with 25 buttons when you dont need to.

Because not everyone wants to use their computer or lack thereof to have dss capability. While the client software, IMHO, is the best in the VOIP world right now, it's also its downfall having to require a computer to get a decent dss read for capability that should be on the instrument itself. If anything is weak on the ShoreTel is its lack of phone models (and looks) and the capabilities in a stand alone functionality.

You can always add 24 button modules to a phone if you want all the DSS buttons. I personally advise using the Callmanger for integration.