atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums TDM Business Telephone Systems Avaya - Lucent Telephones & Systems An impossible request? Schematic??

I'm dealing with an Avaya ACS7 Partner system. The unit will not retain system memory for more than 5 minutes if the AC power goes out. The two AAA batteries should hold the memory for a minimum of 45 days with NO ac power. Backup circuits are EXTREMELY simple however without a board layout or schematic it is virtually an impossible task to troubleshoot. Does anyone have a schematic and/or a board layout for this or a similar unit? I'd sure appreciate it.

Bondo,
The condition you are experiencing is a bug in R7. Avaya has a patch available to correct it. Any Avaya Business Partner can download it from the sso.avaya.com website and install it for you.

Bill

WOW!!!!!!!!! That is AMAZING and a REAL load off my mind. I wonder why the "Avaya Technician Line" person didn't know about it.... I assume that it is a firmware patch?? This system is BRAND NEW but purchased from 2000 miles away. I installed it myself. I'd think that Avaya would be more than happy to let me have the patch since I'm a technician AND a customer. Am I dreaming? Hey Bill! Thanks!!! I appreciate you! BONDO

I wonder why the "Avaya Technician Line" person didn't know about it...

Just a wild guess but probably because you bought it from an unauthorized source making it gray market. You may not realize it but these things are not supposed to be sold to end users via the internet. You are supposed to buy from an Avaya business partner.

If you do a little research you will soon find that the R7 has major problems, one of which you discovered. As soon as Avaya releases a patch to fix one problem it causes another.

We have yet to sell even one R7 because of this situation. It is my opinion that R7s have been dumped into the gray market because it is there that end users and other unknowledgeable people go.

Unfortunately now you are going to have to deal with an Avaya dealer in order to get the patch, that is unless you do the correct thing and return the R7 because it is defective.

-Hal

Hi hbiss,

GEE! This is REALLY most upsetting. I feel like someone has hit me on the side of my head with a brick. I've been an electronic technician for 35 years. After having my old NEC ELECTRA 616 for about 20 years I decided to buy a new one. The first three people I spoke to raved about the high quality of the Avaya phones. I couldn't find anyone in my city to sell them, so I just did a search on the net and found a very courteous "no pressure" company to buy a system from. I find it VERY difficult to accept that a large company like Avaya would let a system out to be sold that has a MAJOR deficiency such as battery backup not operating. Yes, I admit to being naive about the grey market aspect of this but I wanted to buy AVAYA because of their reputation. I WOULD have purchased from a local retailer IF one had been available. Now it seems like Avaya is treating me like I have leprosy! I actually DID purchase a support policy and equipment plan from AVAYA JUST to get programming questions answered. Yes, I CAN get my questions answered from the company I bought them from, however I felt that an actual Avaya plan would "buy me the best". It appears as if I am getting the run around from them. Sad. I just want the fix for my problem. I wonder if I HAD bought this from an "authorized dealer" what they would be telling me now? Signed... Confused

Hi Bondo!

I may be one of the lucky ones. I bought an R7 for the house and the memory survived perfectly during a 90 minute blackout earlier on in the summer. No UPS was in use at the time.

I would guess that Avaya is so focused on the IP Office product line, that the R7 was released before all the bugs were worked out.

Euro II telephone sets have been problematic as well. Reports of bad hook switches have been posted in this forum.

Avaya subcontracts the manufacture of ACS gear to an outside company named Celestica (Celestica also built Magix hardware right up until this past April when the Magix platform was retired).

Vendors have discovered that a new type of hook switch is being used in the Euro II phones. If Avaya requested that the new hook switch be used, then they should get another black eye. If Celestica switched parts on their own, then they deserve a black eye.

Best bet is to stick with the R6 processor and Euro I telephones.

I actually DID purchase a support policy and equipment plan from AVAYA... I just want the fix for my problem.

I really don't see what the problem is. If I buy a pair of shoes and the heel falls off of one I return the shoes and either get a credit or a new pair.

If you actually do have a support and maintenance plan from Avaya there should be no problem getting your ACS replaced even after the dealer warranty period.

-Hal

Bondo,
Avaya has 3 authorized distributors for their products and you must be an authorized business partner to buy from those distributors. There would be no difficulty whatsoever replacing your unit if it were purchased through an authorized business partner.
I am somewhat surprised that Avaya would sell you a support policy and equipment plan for a gray market unit. If you purchased the plan from the "dealer" that sold you the system, it may not be a valid support plan.
However, if you do have a valid equipment plan, tell them you want a replacement unit with the patch applied.
Sorry that our answers were not more encouraging.

Bill

hbis and BillyBob: I also am a bit surprised that Avaya sold me the policy after they nearly mashed me into the ground for not buying from them. But they did. My problem is that I paid for a BRAND NEW unused system. Avaya said they would replace the ACS with a refurbished one ONLY. I have not had the opportunity to reach the place I bought the system from. They are closed on weekends. They DID offer me a 5 year warranty. I can't understand why they don't just SEND ME the firmware update if in fact that IS what the fix is...a flash to a bios chip? Not like I'm asking to download the entire Avaya library. I just want my bug fixed. I purchased the converter plug assembly that goes from the cable plugged into ADMIN and convert it to 25 pin RS232. Does anyone here know for sure what the "cure" is? Is it simply a file to flash over to the ACS?

Bondo,
The patch is installed via a PCMCIA card inserted in one of the slots on the ACS unit. Your "dealer" can't send you the patch because they don't have access to the Avaya SSO website, which is where authorized business partners download it. They would probably charge you for the cost of the linear flash card.
Talk to your "dealer" monday and see what recourse they will offer you. Post back here and let us know what they say.

Bill

BillyBob, Yesterday I spoke to Avaya. They offered to send a technician out and apply the patch under my plan at no additional charge. I told them I wanted to wait to see what the selling company would do for me first. So far, the selling company has bent over backwards to please me. I am SURE that the ACS was a brand new one. The 018 module was suspect. I mentioned that to them and they had another 018 module in my hands in less than 24 hours! Also sent air in another shipment was the 355AF adapter. They seem to be very customer oriented. I suppose the REAL test will come tomorrow when I deal with this "patch remedy". I'll post when I know what they are going to do.

I've read that the VER 7 is supposed to be a nightmare. I clicked on the "read more here" link and am not permitted to read it for some reason. I'd like to see come actual defined problems that I can confirm in my system. The ONLY things I've been able to check on my system is this current problem and the time accuracy. Time is accurate and looses 2 seconds a day. Not bad at all. I WOULD however love to know if it is possible to leave the handset OFF the phone and NOT have the phone do ANYTHING until I push a line button or intercom button. The reason for this is that I use a Plantronics MX10 Headset adaptor that works very well. But I must replace the handset after every call. Any ideas? I have it set to give me intercom dialtone now. Bondo

As far as the headset is concerned, program a phantom line button onto your phone - use something like Line 24, a line that doesn't physically exist on your hardware configuration.

When you are wearing the headset, but want to be disconnected, press the phantom line button. You will be off hook, but on nothing.

Did Avaya release a "018" module? I know of the "012", but not a "018". :confused:

Must be something new. :rolleyes:

-Hal

Hi All. First of all, I was in error when I said "018". It IS a "012" module.

To: TouchToneTommy. THANK YOU! Your suggestion works perfectly!!

Phoned the "selling dealer" and they had not heard of the problem related to the system loosing memory when AC power fails even for a few minutes. They promised to investigate and have an answer for me within a few hours. They did offer me a free pcmcia card to use for backups. I told them that I prefer that the system work as it should with the batteries doing their job. They understood. I'll post again before the end of the day with their solution to the problem. Bondo

Take the card too. Very nice feature if you ever loose your programming.

Selling dealer [said] they had not heard of the problem related to the system losing memory when AC power fails.

What do you think they are going to say? They have a warehouse full of these things, do you think they are going to tell you that they have this little problem? No, sell them and hope that by the time you discover the problem its out of warranty.

Ya think everybody is like us and won't sell the damn thing until Avaya gets it right? That's because WE have to stand behind it. WE are not some company whose only representitive you will ever see is the UPS guy.

-Hal

Hi Hal, I competely understand that you are an ethical individual. I feel that I also am ethical. YOU have the type of company that I like to do business with. However, it is very difficult to discern what kind of company you are dealing with during the shopping phase. I don't buy phone systems often, so I had nothing to go on. Some observations. 1. It is very sad that Avaya does not (evidently) stand by their product no matter WHO is the company selling it! They are the manufacturer and should at LEAST back up what they let out of the shipping door. 2. When calling Avaya it is most interesting listening to the "different stories" that I receive when trying to obtain answers to the most simple of questions. If they don't want their phone equipment to be sold by anyone but their gold plated dealers then how come thousands of phones are somehow getting into "the wrong hands"? Obviously one of the gold plated dealers are not following Avaya rules? Your tag line is something I totally understand at this point. Bondo

point is where you dealing with one of us YOU wouldnt be calling the Avaya help desk or asking for prints WE would take care of the problem

you took your chances and went out on your own rather than dealing with a local installer .

SKIP555, I DID try to find a local installer. I was told that the closest one was in Colorado Springs, a five hour drive each way. Lowest cost was NOT my goal. A mix of expertise and good value were and are my goals.

I came to this site to see if I could locate a schematic. I can repair most items down to the component level IF I have a schematic. I wanted to see how they had designed the backup circuit. You mention "dealing with one of us YOU wouldnt be calling the Avaya help desk." I don't have any idea WHO you are! I am coming here to seek knowledge and to report what has happened with my situation. Shame on me for not living in a heavily populated area with several of "YOU" around. Cut me a break here, ok? Don't be so quick to judge. Bondo

bondobondo- i have had a similar experience. we purchase our avaya products only from platinum business partners. when we call thenm they refer us to avaya, as they don't have the answers. the other problem i have found is that when you program a paging port, which now is a line port not an extension port, it only works for about a week and then the circuit dies. even moving it to another port does not help. i have replaced one 509 twice and am now doing it again. also look out for 509 7.0's that will not support expansion cards. there may be some out there that were programmed as stand-alones. they will not support any expansion cards.

fuzzyone45 - Thanks for the information. A PLATINUM business partner that doesn't provide all the answers?? I guess nobody is perfect. I am constantly doing an internal backup, so that if anything changes then I just do an internal restore. I already have one of the expansion modules. It seems to work perfectly. I'm beginning to feel that buying an Avaya system is like buying a lottery scratch card. You really take your chances. And even if you do win you still have a little mess to clean up. I wish you luck. If mine is not PERFECT in 20 days then it gets returned to the seller. Maybe I'll have to locate a TRIPLE PLATINUM DEALER to buy from.

we purchase our avaya products only from platinum business partners.

An authorized business partner is not supposed to sell equipment without installation, particularly a new installation by the end user.

Dealers are only supposed to sell to business partners, not end users.

Most of the gray market stuff comes from either of the two who see it as an easy way to increase profits or just attain platinum status so they can get lower prices on what they buy. I have seen gray market equipment with the serial number labels removed because somebody was afraid Avaya would trace it back to them and take action against them.

I understand your situation. Unfortunately you unknowingly got sucked in by the unethical side of this business that is ruining it for the rest of us.

I know you tried and I hate to keep repeating this but the fact remains- if you had bought your system from a business partner you wouldn't be having these problems now.

-Hal

hbis, just for curiosity sake. What would it have cost me for an ACS ver7, an 012 module, 13ea 18D phones, one admin programming cable with the Avaya ethernet to RS232 adapter, ten very long handset cords. All phones with display. As I mentioned before, it is NOT all about the cost but I never DID get a price from a full fledged authorized dealer. For what it is worth, and probably VERY little, I got a 5 year warranty. They will probably be gone in a few months. Obviously this is not an offer to buy or to sell. Bondo P.S. You can always send me a private message if you wish.

Just an update for those that are interested. The company I purchased this system from has forwarded to me an exe file that is supposed to be the patch to cure the "backup battery" problem. Now I am just waiting for instructions on how to install the patch. I an not going to do anything unless specifically instructed. They did tell me that if ANYTHING went wrong they would just send me another brand new ACS module. I've backed up with #124 and also backed up to my laptop. Stay tuned for the next thrilling episode of "Avaya Problem or Avaya no problem?"

The R7 issues? Hold my breath

Bad switchooks, HFAI Mic's installed upside down. loss of programing....what Next?

I have found out that the swichhook problem really isn't a problem. It's because the board dosen't sit tight in the set. There Not enough pressure contact. I have fixed the switch hook problens meny times. Everything from tape to heating and bending the switch hook arm.

This new stuff is almost pure crap. The New foggy plastic overlays also make the lights harder to see.

Another 3rd generation company barely holding on to it's past reputation soon to be going.. going ... gone.

Another 3rd generation company barely holding on to it's past reputation soon to be going.. going ... gone.

I think they are betting the farm on IP crap while their bread and butter, what put them where they are (or were) goes to hell.

Lets see- no cordless solution because of poor design, ACS R7 a disaster, defective phones and the customer sales brochures haven't been updated in I don't know how long. They still show the old style phones, how long has the series II been out?

-Hal

Bondo,
I know you feel like everyone is saying, "I told you so!" If you had purchased an R6, even if it was gray market, you would not be having these problems. They are very reliable.
I just installed an R7 system today in which the materials were shipped to the customers site (I was just doing the install) by the national contract company. The national contractor had programmed it before shipment, but guess what? It had lost all the programming! They had made a backup so it was a simple matter to restore it.
Avaya told this national contractor not to fool with the patch that it caused more problems than it fixed. I've got to research that some. If that is true, then the patch won't help you any. BTW - did your "dealer" tell you that the exe they sent would have to loaded onto a linear flash card before it could be installed?

Like Hal said, and I hate to see it, but I agree that Avaya is a sinking ship.

Bill

Hi Bill,

They have not told me anything except they THINK it has to be loaded onto a genuine 8mb pcmcia card. I have an 8mb compact flash and a pcmcia adaptor that it fits into. However I'm not willing to do anything with it until I get something in writing that I SHOULD perform a certain action. I'm waiting for them to ship me one or a new R7. Hey, you guys may be right. I did notice that the manual was very old for the phone. Well, I'm going to give it another week then this whole system goes back. REAL QUESTION: If the Avaya current offering is such a dud what would my better choice be brand wise? I'll never go voip.

Tell them you want a release 6.0 (or nothing) and send the 7 back.

To the point: Has ANY Avaya dealer here ACTUALLY APPLIED THE PATCH for the lack of battery backup problem to the ACS ver7? If so, will you please share how it is accomplished? I have the exe file. I just want to get er' done. If so many hundreds of these modules are messed up SOMEONE has to be applying the patches. Sure would appreciate some specific steps. Thanks!

Get an Advanced replacement so your not stuck. It should'nt be too difficult to reprogram since you've done it many times before... :rolleyes:

Bondo - I have been going around to all our R7 customers and installing the patch.

Yes, it must be installed on a "linear flash card", which is NOT the same a compact flash card.

You power down the ACS, remove any backup/restore cards, any PC Voice Mail cards, then put in the Upgrade Card. Power up, and for the next minute the Power LED on the processor will blink Red and Green. Depending on which revision the R7 was to start with, the light will blink from 94 to 99 times (not a lot to do while you're waiting for the patch to load!!)

After the patch is loaded, the LED turns Solid Green, then Yellow, then Green again.

Now you power down, remove the Upgrade Card, reinstall any Backup or VM Cards, and power back up.

That's it.


Now, you really should stop screwing around with your vendor. Return the R7 for a full refund, or an R6 if you feel like to want to stick with them. They obviously don't know what they are doing from a technicial standpoint.


We have sold thousands of Partner systems over the years, and yes, lots of R7's. I'm not nearly as pessimistic as many on this thread, and still beleive that Avaya is producing some good products, including the Partners and (God forbid!) IP Office. I still really like the Magix system, and wish they were being produced. It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Tommy, thanks SO much for a straightforward complete answer! I appreciate it! Question. If you, as an official Avaya Partner ( I assume ) order some ACS V7 modules WILL THEY ALL HAVE THE PATCH APPLIED? I was told that the items I was purchasing were ALL brand new. Shouldn't this have had the patch already IF it were "brand new"? Have YOU had any bad experiences AFTER installing this patch? So many are making references to MORE trouble being created after this patch is in place. Should I be concerned? I suppose if your answer to the first question is yes, that a newly ordered ACS would have the patch then I'll just demand a new one and be done with it. Thanks for taking the time to help me! Bondo

Man oh Man....are you beating this post to death or what.........

Bondo, isn't it possible that, maybe, just maybe there was stock around the country before they found the bug? Hence, the patch would not be applied?

Sort of the same as buying Windows XP. Once installed, there are patches/fixes needed.

Mongo, yes, of course that is possible. However it is not probable IF the seller is telling me anything that resembles the truth. He said that he sells more than 200 systems PER MONTH. This flaw was discovered in MAY. I've asked for a brand new FRESH from the factory unit. If it does not arrive I'm returning all. I give up. Sure wouldn't want to beat a post to death.

UPDATE: Here is the most current information. Level 3 Avaya told me that they are fully aware of the defect in that the battery backup does not function. They will apply a firmware patch for me entitled 7.91.I They have also acknowledged that this patch causes every extension to have Auto Privacy permanently turned ON and it cannot be turned off. They are working on 7.91.J that will correct this situation. My salesperson has agreed to replace the ACS7 module in 4 weeks if it isn't 100% to my satisfaction. The service call will not be for a few days. I'll post again after the patch is installed and working. Bondo

I don't thing you're beating it to death Bondo. Thanks for keeping us informed. This may help other in the future.
Bill

They are working on 7.91.J

Would be interesting to know what the results of A thru H were.

J will fix the Auto Privacy issue but will cause your hair to fall out when you pick up the handset. The tech advisory is to use the speakerphone until they come out with K. :shrug:

-Hal

I only have 3 R7's out there. Luckily I have had no problems. The phones however, I have had some trouble with.

Bondobondo, don't let anyone on this board discourage you from posting useful information. Some of the others here that don't possess any real knowledge or skills, may butt in with an off topic comment now and again. You just have to ignore those people.

You my friend are providing alot of research and leg work that could benefit alot of us here. By all means, Keep beating that horse :toast:

I would guess that alot of the bad feelings expressed on this board towards Avaya are due to 2 primary factors (and maybe a few minor ones):

1) The Partner ACS R7 being released with both hardware and software glitches leaving vendors unsure weather to sell the R7 or keep on selling the R6.

2) Avaya's decision to pull the plug on the Merlin Magix in favor of the IP Office.

One can only hope that both Avaya and Celestica get their acts together and start cranking out gear that does what it is supposed to do and doesn't break down during burn-in or soon after the hardware has been installed at a customer's location.

Dexman, you forgot #3 - Toshiba is better.

Sorry, the devil made me do it. :banana: