atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Other TDM Phone Systems Antique Telephones Connecting 1-BA (WE) Answering Set??

I have an old, Western Electric 1-BA Telephone Answering Set from 1964 that I am fixing up. It looks identical to this one:
https://www.cedarknolltelephone.com/cedartel/1ba.jpg
I am trying to connect it to my home phone line, but having no luck and it is driving me crazy! I have tried combinations of connections yielding dial tone, or sound, or dial, or receive, but not all of them and the attached phone won't ring. I assume I have something connected wrong.
On the back is a terminal strip I cannot decipher with 13 terminals labeled thus:
[A][B][C][D][E][F][G][T][R][K1][G1][T1][R1]
There are jumpers connecting [A]and[B], [C]and[D], and [K1]and[G1]. Also, the wires leading to the phone are connected: Green to [T1] and red to [R1]. It is hardly user-friendly, and requires the removal of the whole cover just to get at it. Probably also a phone technician to install it!
On the side of the unit is a phono plug port, like you would plug large headphones into or something. Hoping this might be the interface, I tried variations there too but to no avail.
After staring at countless links via Google for several days trying to find the answer for myself, I am at my wit's end! Please help me make sense of the terminal strip, and how to connect it up.
Thank you all for reading this.

On the terminal strip try jumpering 'T' and 'G' and connect to the green wire of the phone jack, 'R' to the red wire of the phone jack. (Substitute the expression Line Cord for Phone Jack if you are putting a 1/2 mudular line cord on the animal) And does the phone have a bell. The 1/4 inch jack is probably for recording the announcement with the microphone you didn't get. Too bad you didn't wind up with a 700, now THAT I could help you with! Repaired those hogs for 12 years!

Thank you for such a quick reply! I'll go try that. For what it's worth, I already connected the wires as you suggested, however I haven't tried jumpering the [T] and [G] terminals. That might be the ticket.

As for the side plug, it might have had a microphone originally, but I can record the greeting through the handset as well. I thought it might be for an external speaker or something for listening to the messages.

Semi-related to this, the Model 500 phone attached to it has a lightly spring loaded wire between the bells that appears to adjust the tension of the clapper or something. What is this for? Does it activate/deactivate the ringer? I can't experiment with it to find out for myself since I can't get the thing to ring yet in the first place, so I thought I'd ask.

Thank you!

The thin wire is the bias spring and was for when ringing current was low, you'd take it out of the notch to loosen the bias. The heavy one is for bell loudness and if you remove the screw to shut the bells off.

I think you are going to want to connect the green and yellow leads from the telephone set together on terminal T1.

Wow! I love the support of this place! Thank you all for helping a newbie!

So far, I have tried jumping [G]and[T] and connecting like advised above. With the machine "on" I get nothing (I'll eventually want different results) but with the machine "off" I get a dial tone, I can send and receive calls, but still no ring.
So, out of curiosity, I removed the jumper and stayed connected; [G] to green, [R] to red, and got absolutely nothing, although I could hear a faint ringing through the earpiece.

Perhaps, before more trials, you folks could assuage my fear of connecting the wrong thing to the wrong thing, and zapping something irreparably. It has lasted 45 years and still functions, I don't want to be the one to cause the demise of a functional collectible.

And, as to the "collectible" status of this machine, I guess I don't know the "value" of it other than the sentimentality factor that my father bought it new and his voice is still on it from HIS youth. I am tinkering with something that was made shortly before I was, so to me this is a big deal and getting it working is beyond valuable to me. Perhaps to those of you here with vastly more knowledge than I have on the matter it is not that big a deal, but it is to me. That said, I deeply appreciate the fact that you all are even reading this, let alone the notion that you would help me. Again, thank you.

I'm off to the workbench again to try Ed's suggestion. I'll let you know what I find out.

Ok, I just tried that, and got the same results. I'll try to upload some pictures so you can see what I am doing. Maybe that will help.

Here is my current setup:

Well I tried my best to find the wiring schematic on this and nothing. T&R should be your incoming tip and ring. The T1 R1 should be out to the phone. So that's where I'd start, if you haven't already. The strapping could be for the outgoing message recording, but I really have no idea.

Thanks! What do you mean by "the strapping?" I don't know what that means (sorry!).

I tried that connection setup first, as that made the most sense. Shortly after removing the cover, I made the newbie mistake of tightening all the terminal screws just because they were loose. Now I can't remember which of them might have been loose, as a clue as to which of them might have been originally connected to the house wiring. Dangit!!

I am at a loss.....

Strapping=jumpers, sorry. So if you put dial tone on T&R you don't get dial tone out on T1&R1? If that's the case it sounds like you might need some sort of switch hook control. This is just one big guessing game unless someone can come up with a wiring diagram. How about a wiring diagram for a Code-a-Phone? That might be close enough to at least get an idea.

Bill, how about this: I'm pretty sure that K1 and G1 are A leads, so there should be no need for connections there in this application. Perhaps our issue is within the connected 500 set. Do you agree?

I don't think that terminal "G" in the answering set is really a ground terminal. I think A-G are just there for options. The likely connections should be incoming on T/R and outgoing on T1/R1. That would follow normal logic by today's standards anyway. If there truly is a ground terminal, I'd think that it is G1 myself.

DHarrell: How about looking inside the phone. Move the black lead from the ringer coil over from terminal G to terminal L1 along with the other leads that are on L1. The red lead from the ringer coil should be connected to terminal L2 with all existing leads.

They may have been disconnected to avoid the "phone police" back in the day.

Also, be sure to put back any option straps that you removed from terminals A-G in the answering set that you mentioned in your first post. Tightening screws didn't harm anything.

This is one of those I wish were in front of me.

I'll try changing the wires inside the phone itself, but how should I leave the connections at the terminal panel? Jumpered? Non-jumpered? I'll try both, to see what happens.

Ed- I didn't remove any of the option straps that were there, and I only mentioned the loose screws as a clue as to which ones were originally loosened back in the day. And I also agree that the lettering of A-G seems too convenient to have G as a green lead now, but who knows? I wish the schematic in the cover helped, but it is only a map of the components, not how they are connected.

I have tried so many things, that I have forgotten what happened when I connected T/R to T1/R1. I know I did it, and wasn't happy with it, but I'll go try that again too, just to eliminate another option.

Again, and as always, thank you guys!

I have taken extensive pictures of my progress along the way. Is there anything you would like to see that I maybe took a shot of already?

I was talking more hands on, with volt ohm meter and butt set to see what was on what. If Ed is correct on K1 G1 (and he usually is) than that would be the switch hook control.

Not connecting T/R to T1/R1. Incoming dial tone on T/R phone on T1/R1

Like Ed said.
If the line is interrupted with the unit turned on, it probably is stuck in some on line process. With the phone connected to T1 and R1, and the phone line connected to T-G and R, and the unit turned off/unplugged, do you get the phone line, yes or no? If yes, when you plug the unit into AC with the unit turned off, do you still get the phone line, yes or no? If yes, when you turn the unit on, do you lose the phone line, yes or no.
NOW for the BIG question, when you hook up the unit to the phone line, do ANY of the tests seem to completely kill the phone line? For this test, use a phone connected to the same jack as the unit.
And like ED, I wish I had it in front of me, this one is NOT going to be fun to troubleshoot over the internet. Any chance you could tell us what the knobs are labeled and what the labels are on multi-position switches are? John C.

Ok, I decided to tackle one sub-problem at a time, and just work on the phone. I'll try the suggestions you gave John, after I solve this one:
I tried connecting the phone wires directly to the phone, eliminating the answering machine altogether. Red to red, green to green. I also tried green and yellow together later.


When I did this, everything works except for the ringer. I fiddled around a bit after recording the current setup:



Here is a better angle:


I connected the line-in like this:
Yellow on "3" with the black ringer wire
Green still on "f"
Black still on "4"
Red on "L2"

And the ringer like this:
Black on "3" with yellow
Red moved to "L2" with line-in red.

Results: When I connect the phone line, the clacker moves hard against the bell that is adjustable (right side if looking at the bells), and stays there. Upon an incoming call, it rings weakly a few times and stops, and the ringing in the earpiece of the phone I am using stops too. It is as if I get one ring, and then nothing.

So, I put it all back.

I then found a schematic for this phone, and hooked up everything as shown again. The only enlightenment I got was the option of moving the green wire from "F" to "RR", so I tried that. I got nothing.

Question 1:
How many volts/amps is the ringer electromagnet so I can hook it up directly to something to see if that is the problem? I don't want to fry it.

Question 2:
Should I do that?

Question 3:
What am I missing here??

1 you will fry it because it's 20hz

2 no

3 on older phone at the connecting block, not in the phones, put the yellow and green together, this should resolve your ringing problem. Assuming all the network wiring is where it was originally. If you do this in the phone, move the bell lead to the incoming green lead.

The fact that the clapper pulls over when connected means that you are getting very close. We now know that the ringer coil is good and it appears that the capacitor is either bad or not wired into the circuit. Check to see that the slate and slate/red wires from the ringer coil are connected to terminals A and K on the network respectively.

Without the capacitor to provide DC isolation, your ringer coil is basically placing a short across the line.

This is where I am right now:



It will ring once, and then nothing more, however my cell phone says the call is "connected" (which explains the stoppage of ringing I guess!).

So close... so close......

I have the yellow and green together already at the line, not inside the phone. By "bell lead", do you mean the red wire going to the ringer? I really apologize for not asking the right questions with the right terms.

WOO HOOOO!! It works now! I moved the slate/red wire over to "K" and it works. That's not what the schematic showed, so I would have never guessed it. Thank you for that tip.

Now, (panting), back to the answering machine!!

OK, I did the tests you suggested, and here are the results:
With the unit unplugged, the phone does all functions.
With the unit plugged in, the phone does all functions.
With the switch turned on, it kills the phone completely. No incoming or outgoing anything.

The machine will still let me record and playback a greeting through the phone, but nothing more.

Where is the next place I need to turn my attention?

Now that it have it operational you probably need a Users Guide?

Western Electric 1-BA Users Guide

I bet you had a BLAST!

Dean

I'm working on getting you the BSP for it. Stay tuned.

What is the complete model number of the 500-type set that's with it?

Dean:
Thank you, but I already found that link in my hair-pulling quest for answers. You had me pretty excited for a minute, though!

Arthur:
Thank you for searching for the BSP for me. What is a BSP??

On the back of the attached phone, it says L/M, 500, and 8-59. Those are the only markings anywhere on the phone.

The bible of the Bell System. Every piece of equipment and proceedure every used documented in the Bell System Pratices. Arthur is going to get the the instructions for installing the 1-AB.

"With the switch turned on, it kills the phone completely. No incoming or outgoing anything.
_________________________________________________

But can another phone, connected directly to the line, still make and answer calls? If so, then it's quite possible that you are not supposed to be able to use the phone. That would prevent you from answering/interrupting the line when the macine is supposed to do it. Phone companies used to try to make stuff fool-proof to use and sometimes went the proverbial 'mile too far'. John C.

BSP\'s (click)

Here are the entire set of BSP's that applies to the machine you have, thanks to the members of TCI.

Please be aware that they are PDF's and they are big files.

Nice move Arthur :thumb:

Thanks, Bill. Happy to help.

Wow Arthur! How can I thank you?? I haven't taken a look at them yet, but it appears I have some reading to do. I really hope I find the answer in there somewhere (I'm pretty sure I will!).
I'll report back what I find out, in hopes that someone else lucky enough to stumble across one of these in the future can learn as I have.

John; I haven't had a chance yet to look at that, but I'll try when I can, and let you know. Thanks for the advice!

Have fun. How can you thank me? Hmmm...

If you find any like these, let me know:



or one like this:

Well, I'm fresh out of pink phones around here, but I'll keep my eyes peeled and if I see any, you are the guy I'll be calling!

As for the happy ending, it's just not happening yet. I am now feeling VERY much more informed thanks to the BSP's, but I have an issue that isn't mentioned in there as far as I can decipher:

Smack dab in the middle of the unit is an "ON-OFF" switch that is messing with me. Whether it is "ON" or "OFF", the phone functions as a phone should, regardless of whether the power is plugged in or not to the answering machine. But the phone cuts out when I turn the knob on the front of the machine on, regardless of the "ON" or "OFF" status of the internal switch. What is that thing for? In the BSP, it mentions testing the machine with the switch "OFF", but never says to turn it "ON" again. Of course, I have tried both ways with the same results.

Can it be that I am this close yet a world away? How do I ask for more help when so much has already been given, yet I am still not there? Please, any further enlightenment would be a huge help.

If it helps you, I am blogging every step along the way, and I plan to give proper kudos to all of you for your help thusfar. Does immortality in my blog help spur you on to continue helping me?

Sorry, I am already immortal. I can't help you any further because I have never seen one of these beasts in person or in operation. However, the good news is that there are some fellows in my two antique telephone clubs who can help. I will ask one or two of them to get in touch with you.

I very greatly appreciate that! In the meantime, I'm tinkering with this, and putzing with that... This really IS a lot of fun! I believe I am becoming "one of you guys"...

dharrell, you'd better check for rapidly expanding forehead, and I don't mean your head is swelling. You need to consider just how much hair you want to lose! John C.

Amen to that!

Well, I'm already bald so I guess I have nothing to worry about!!

Just to keep you in the loop here, both men have emailed me with an offer to help, and I have sent them my dilemma. I am awaiting their response, and causing more trouble in the meantime. Idle hands........ After lubricating everything AS DESCRIBED in the bsp, I have a moaning message drum. I think some oil might have gotten into the workings and allowed slippage where there should have been friction. I am fairly scared to dig further out of fear of breaking the beast, yet I really want IN THERE!! Temptation.......

"Well, I'm already bald so I guess I have nothing to worry about!!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, it would seem you have passed the entrance exam. John C.

OK, just for fun, here is the link to my developing blog on the matter:

https://1-ba.blogspot.com/

Those of you with more knowledge on the subject than I, (which is a majority, I'm sure) will probably get a chuckle at the newbie. Hey -- I'm learning!!

Nice Blog, if you ever get this going I still have somewere a bottle of KS /cleaner/lube used for the drums and heads we old telco guys called it moose milk. But since it is liquid have to figure a way to ship it to you if you want it.

So even armed with the BSP's you've been unable to make it work?

Yeah, it is quite a head scratching enigma!! When I power on the machine, the phone goes dead. What's the deal with that??

That is very kind and generous of you to offer, thank you! I think I've already done the damage with the lightweight oil though. Now I'm trying to get the drum to stop moaning when it turns. Maybe TOO MUCH lube?? I don't know anymore....

I think someone said this earlier, but that may be the way it's suppose to work. Is it killing the phone line or just the one phone connected to it?

No, it doesn't kill the phone line, it only kills the phone attached to it. I branched another phone off of that same line, and it is fine.
The problem with that theory is that when it is powered on (and goes dead) it performs no other functions. I assume I should be able to turn it on and then call home and it would answer the phone. It does not. None of the lights come on (other than the medallion light) to tell me it is ready, and it doesn't actually DO anything. That's the dilemma now.

As for the moaning sound, I went in and fixed that. Couldn't avoid the temptation! I added those pictures to my blog too, if you are completely bored and want to see them!

I noticed one difference from the BSPs and my machine, and that is that there is no fuse holder or reset switch where they should be. If you look at the pictures around the incoming power line, you can see the bracket where the fuse tube should be, but there is nothing there, and just North of that where the reset should be, another void. I don't think that's it since the machine powers up, but it is a difference from the expected...

So after all the discussion did you ever make any head way with the ans. mach. ;and do you want the ks head cleaner I mentioned?

Thanks for following up with me! No, I am still trying to figure out why I can't just plug it in and have it work now. It seems like everything is in order and operational, so it's driving me nuts!! As for the moose milk, that is generous of you and I can give you my address if you want to send some, but it might not be worth the trouble considering it is liquid and the post office gets paranoid... Plus it will do you more good than me, since this is the only phone-related project with moving parts I have (at least for now!). What else could I find locally that I could use to clean the surface of the recording drums? I might just end up doing that, and then shelving it as a non-working unit with an attitude problem. :bang:

I think any good grade commerical cassette cleaner might work. what you want to do is remove the oxides on the drum and the heads.

That can't actually be the root of the problem though, can it? I mean, were they advanced enough way back then to have some sort of sensor that would halt operation because of dirty or contaminated drums? I have the heads held up with the retention springs to keep them off the drums for transport while I figure it out, but it can't be that could it? If it is a failed tube or switch somewhere, is there a troubleshooter or something? I went back and re-read literally every word of the BSP's and found nothing in any of them to give a clue. How can I tell if there is a failed component that might be the root of the problem?

No I don't think dirty heads or drum will do that; but I only offered the cleaner in case you get it going and want to keep the static out.

Well, after a quick look at the manual, I'd suggest first checking for the correct voltages on the DC power supply outputs. If that is beyond your comfort zone, time to stop. The voltages quoted can easily kill if they have any current capability beyond 100ma, which they probably do! It looks like a challenge, and I used to repair the next generation of these. Where they graduated from tubes to transistors and still used large quantities of relays and recording tape. I'd volunteer, but my workbench is already covered with honey-do's, hobby projects, and STUFF. John C.