atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Security, Alarms and Paging Who is responsible

A question that comes up every now and again is the installing of a RJ31X for the customers alarm system.

I have always believed it was the alarm companies job to install these, do you agree?

I've been told by the alarm people that they don't do it, that they don't even carry RJ31X's anymore and that it's the cabling crew or the telephone company job to install it.

Most companies that I've worked for, as well as my own belief, won't take on the responsibility of correctly wiring this without a liability waiver.

So I thought I'd ask the guys who install alarm systems for their thoughts.

I have always believed it was the alarm companies job to install these, do you agree?

No, and there are beanie boys walking around with broken hands to prove it.

-Hal

I always argue with my partner about RJ31X. Why in the whall world somebody would do Security System Installation and making money on it but would never install an RJ31X? This is a part of the SS. But no metter how hard I'm trying to not to do it I always endup of doing it. Pisses me off.

I always install my own. If the phone vendor leaves one for me, I will use it, if not I put my own in. The problem is a good majority of installers do not know how to properly install them and even fewer own any of the proper tools for telecom work.

I would rather put it in because then I know it will be done right...half of the time they use 22 gauge stranded wire half-way wrapped around the screw terminals of the RJ31X and punched down to a screwdriver on a block. Also we can't forget when they pull pairs off the RJ21 and then beanie on to the pair...

The FCC says that it is the responsibilty of the LEC, and we know that to be the case because???...let's not always see the same hands, class...it is a REGISTERED JACK and by definition it is ordered from, and installed by, the LEC, and becomes the first point to which a customer is allowed to connect. The end user or his agent (meaning us) is not allowed to terminate exchange service (the CO side) on a registered jack, or even, if you strictly read the tariffs, do any work on the CO side of one.

Personally speaking I do not allow anyone other than myself to install the RJ31X block for an alarm system that I'm responsible for.

But then again I was a phone man long before I was an alarm man!

YEP :thumb:

Another thought occurs. Where does liability, if there is any, begin or end?

The point has been suggested that the alarm installer should be the only one to install and maintain an alarm jack because there is a chance that lawsuits will fly should the alarm system not function. If it is determined that the problem was with the jack, we as phone guys don't want the liability and the alarm installer doesn't want to rely on someone else to keep him out of trouble.

That arguement is bogus because if there is going to be a lawsuit anybody and everybody even remotely involved is going to be named as a party. Obviously the alarm installer doesn't run his own wiring from the jack back to the central monitoring station, so like it or not other people are involved. Many times our premises wiring is used to bring dial tone to where the jack location is. So if we are part of the link anyway, what difference does it make which one of us installs the jack? We are all just as guilty to the lawyers.

Point is if the alarm installer wants to try to mitigate liability for everybody he needs to make the system as reliable as possible and provide redundant means of reporting. I wouldn't worry about the jack.

-Hal

Arthur, you wouldn't happen to be looking for a room mate would you?

Yes, this is yet another of those "mandatory" issues that were fine back when the LECs actually wanted to do inside wiring. Once they decided to turn their noses up at it (thankfully), they seemed to have forgotten about the enforcement of the very rules that they wrote for the FCC to enforce.

The whole industry has become nothing but a millionaire's club anymore. Quality, rules and enforcement are so far gone that I wonder when and if they ever really existed. It's only the sparkie regulators that are doing anything at all. Kind of like the fox guarding the chicken coop.

I always assume that everyone else is going to do nothing. On a pre-wire, the first thing I do is alert the customer to the fact that if they are moving data circuits to a new building, they better call their provider immediately and get into the queue. I have seen law firms pay rent on a new office space, but they could not move in because they were waiting for their T-1s to be installed. Then of course, no one wants to bring up dial tone from the demarc either. The funniest one was this year when a customer told me "Oh - Time Warner said they will pull the cable in for $99.00". I said "Oh really, they are going to run 12 plenum RG6 coax cables for $99.00?" When they showed up they said "we don't do that", and they don't even carry plenum cable on their truck. All they did was drop off the set-top boxes.

All of that is true. But for me it's not so much that I'm trying to mitigate liability for anyone.
My biggest concern is keeping the security and/or fire alarm system functioning properly so it can do it's job no matter what!

I do everything I possibly can to make sure the systems are as reliable as the equipment allows. But, as with every other system, redundancy is only limited by the customer's budget.

For me it's a matter of preference to install the cable and jack myself. In doing so I do not have to worry if it's correct or not.

The most common problem I've faced with telephone cables ran by someone else is earth ground faults. As I'm sure you know a small scale earth ground has very little affect on most telephone systems.
However, even the slightest earth ground in a fire alarm will cause a major problem in the future once it is introduced into the system because the fault is never going to do anything but intensify over time.
That's the reason fire alarm systems monitor earth grounds in the first place.

Of course it's not feasible for me to run my own circuit all the way to the monitoring center, but trust me, If I could I would! If it saved one life it would be worth the effort!

can anyone point me to a link, or something, with the relevant FCC regulation on this?

Any help is much appreciated!

FCC regulations pertaining to what?
I think the only FCC regulations you're going to find pertain to the jack it's self, not who's going to be responsible for installing the jack.

Not to give you a non-answer but I think the general consensus is that it's still pretty much up to whomever is willing to take responsibility.

That's as clear as mud isn't it? :shrug:

The most common problem I've faced with telephone cables ran by someone else is earth ground faults. As I'm sure you know a small scale earth ground has very little affect on most telephone systems.
However, even the slightest earth ground in a fire alarm will cause a major problem in the future once it is introduced into the system because the fault is never going to do anything but intensify over time.
That's the reason fire alarm systems monitor earth grounds in the first place.

I think you are confusing the wiring for the smokes, pull stations and alerting equipment with the phone line wiring. How would you monitor a POTS line for resistance to ground? Also, The most common problem I've faced with telephone cables ran by someone else is earth ground faults. Most common problem? That just doesn't make sense or we would all be chasing grounds most of the time.

-Hal

USOC (Universal Service Order Codes) or "RJ" codes were developed under the FCC's Part 68 of their regulations. USOC requirements were developed in the early 1970's and the Bell companies were key players in the development of this program.

In theory, it was a great idea. Now that Bell companies and standards are a thing of the past, I seriously doubt that any regulations that involve the local service provider being responsible for ANY form of inside wiring can be enforced.

Since Part 68 applied to all US telcos, including all independents such as Contel, Alltel, GTE, United, Centel, Century, etc., it doesn't matter what part of the country you are in. FCC covers everywhere in the US, even though AT&T pretty much set the standards that the FCC rules supposedly enforce.

AT&T/Bell companies pretty much created the uniform standards and the FCC backed them, but that was at a different time. This was back when AT&T held the monopoly and the regulators danced to their tune. Their Bell companies actually wanted to do this inside wiring work. Even if these rules existed under the original Part 68, I can sleep well in telling you that the RJ31X (or any series jack for that matter) is the telco's responsibility today.

Personally, I'd be amazed to see any LEC or CLEC "technician" who even understands what a series jack is. Most, if not all responsibility for anything inside the building has been shifted to the tenant or building owner. Regardless of how Part 68 is written, rest assured that you can't fight the service providers.

You are correct that a ground fault is worse on the SLC (Signaling Line Circuit) than it is the telephone circuit but if the Tip & Ring is grounded enough it can and will cause problems for the fire panel.
I suppose it's similar to the problem modems had many years ago when you could talk on a grounded pair and the hum wasn't a big problem for voice but data flow was affected a great deal.

The magnitude of the problem will vary depending upon the communication format your panel uses to communicate with the central monitoring center.
Back when 4x2 pulse format was the most commonly used format it wasn't such a problem but with the faster formats used currently (such as Contact-ID) it doesn't take near as much ground to cause problems.

Actually, that makes perfect sense to me.

The regs pertain only to a definition and standard of installation and it must be installed to certain requirements... no matter who does it.

Use the right stuff. Install it right.

Heck.. this is the topic of study that brought me this forum in the first place!

Personally, I just want it done right... if I can do that, then great. However, if I look at a punch down and can't figure it out due to my lack of telcom knowledge and experience, I tell my client to have a proper phone guy come in and wire my stuff in for me.

If there is a cost issue, I try to work them.... give them a credit or something.