atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums VOIP Phones & IP PBX VoIP & Cloud Phones, Hosted PBX, General IP Phones VoIP vs TDM

There is a post in General section about Why NOT to buy an IP system To be fair with the VoIP installers I have started this thread to list advantages of VoIP. As with the other thread Please try to keep your comments to the product and not bash the technical ability of those who work in either environment.

I am not sure if it is an inherent advantage, but nearly every manufacturer, major and not is moving into VoIP. Some are still coming out with digital systems or converged systems, but they are an afterthought from their VoIP operations and investment, or so it seems to me.

Steve

Not sure if I should post or not... I know that VoIP seems much easier to install and I make more margins but my VoIP offerings are very non traditional. Had a friend go to Siemens OpenScape training last week and I am afraid to ask if he passed the test. What gets me is we saw it coming in the late 90s and have tried our best to hold the line with 3rd & 4th generation of digital products. I had a vision for my network and it included VoIP and I promise if you were to ask your clients to make a vision, voip would be first in mind. I can offer more P2P & Hosted if anyone wants to keep this open.

I think there needs to be some distinction between the various "VOIP" systems. VOIP really isn't a system, but rather a type of signaling when it comes to talking about communications. If you compare a TDM system that uses digital signaling with a similar system using VOIP signaling, you won't find that much difference in day to day use. Having recently bid several TDM and VOIP systems to customers, what I can say is the TDM/Digital systems are less expensive to deploy and require less of a learning curve for the user. The VOIP systems on the otherhand are more expensive to deploy and require a bit more learning curve for the user, but offer the advantage of having more applications and great programming flexibility for setup. Myself, I see me still doing a lot of smaller digital systems for small business, but moving more towards a VOIP type system for larger businesses. I don't see moving away from PRI to SIP trunking either. Its not cost effective for businesses. HOSTED VOIP is a whole different animal, and I don't ever see me recommending to any of my customers to go that route.

Today a bank customer wanted a quote for budgetary purposes for a VoIP system for his whole bank....My question was why use VoIP sets throughout? He thought he had to pay for the "high dollar" VoIP sets everywhere like his neighbor bank did for a Crisco system....he was very pleased to here the real answer....only where they were needed.

So, fully VoIP or not? Go with an advanced TDM with VoIP capacity and get the best of both worlds..... :thumb:

I received a new product catalog from Viking Electronics and flipped through it looking to see any new products. Sure enough, they have 12 and 24 port "ring booster/shaper" units. Of course, they are rack-mounted with MSRP of about 25 Benjamins. Basically, per their own documentation, these devices are needed behind many VoIP 'systems' (with one of them being named) in order to support 'legacy' devices, such as single-line telephones, etc.

Shouldn't these 'systems' be able to ring a bell in a single-line telephone without having to purchase yet another 'server' to support what has been the industry-standard for over a century? Am I missing something?

IP is a great transmission medium, no doubt. The problem is that it is just that: A transmission medium. Once inside the four walls of an office, it offers no benefit whatsoever. If anything, it costs more money. I'm sure that in generations to come, this gap will narrow, but not until people learn what VoIP really is and what it can do.

That there is precisely the issue. Grasping VOIP is a transmission medium..nothing more. Unfortunately a very PICKY medium for voice. I have no problem selling VOIP and making more money, but it takes SO much more to make it stable and reliable that why bother for internal voice? The sheer ignorance of the term VOIP thrown around by so-called "IT-professionals" is staggering. It's IP so it must be EASY.....ya.

Reminds me of this little Indian guy we installed a system for..he CONSTANTLY was saying, "VOIP means I get FLEA calls!" "VOIP is FLEA!" Ugh...

I had not installed a phone system in over 15 years before I started my own business less than 12 months ago (I had been strictly a sales person). I waited 22 years to start my company and knowing what I know I was only going to support a product that was easy to install plus gave me a nice advantage in the 2-25 phone market. Anything larger I push IP Centrex and have for 3-4 years now... What I have come to believe in my constant screening process of products is P2P VoIP & RTP is going to provide an easier way to deploy and communicate via VoIP. My VoIP model is strictly server-less. I only keep a few phones, a router and a switch in stock. I can tell you I would not be on my own if I had to deal with what I have witnessed techs go through the last 20 years.

CNetworx,

you are talking about hosted VOIP right? Most of my customers would not see that as a cost effective solution.

Z-Man..Yes I do support Hosted but I was talking mostly about transport methods.. My “key-system product” is P2P and by not needing KSU it makes the install much easier. The advantages of my VoIP model is it is easier to install, easier to use, easier to make changes to, easier to upgrade software, easier to train on and it makes me money.

RTP is a new upgrade for Asterisk and my P2P phones can migrate to Asterisk so I was hoping to have a response with the mentioning. I have heard some of the hosted providers brag about it during my screening process but I am sure this was all a function of their EdgeMarc router.

If its P2P, they how do you intergrate trunks? or can you only use SIP trunking?

Just like a SOHO would. Lines plug into the phones but yes they also support SIP Trunks just have not tried it yet. Go to the "Other Systems" forum and look at the Konnect subject and lets talk more there. It is a new product...

I'm not touching this topic with a 10 foot pole!

For thirty years I have watched this industry evolve, IMHO, the transition to IP, has been most challenging.
With that said, there is no doubt in my mind that all aspects of IP (VOIP, Local IP, IP trunks, etc)are the wave of the future and year after year they are eating away the TDM arena.

Installation:
I have seen IP phone systems installed in half the time it takes to deploy a TDM. Furthermore, I can do it anywhere in the country and all I need to get it installed is someone that can plug phones in and mount the server to a rack or wall.

We installed a IP phone system "Ipitomy" with 15 phones, and was only on site for an hour (two men) Training was easy because they changed from one IP system to another.

Log Me In 123 is a great tool to gather IP information prior to the install. It is also a great tool to check the health of a network before an install.

If you do a network evaluation prior to the install you can save yourself a ton of grief, this also give you an opportunity to upgrade their network and possible take over their network.
If you are not maintaining their network and their is a network problem that is causing the phone system to fail, that is a billable call.

If it is a new install and new cabling is required, we run dual runs and setup a separate network for the phone system.

Training:
Sure there is a learning curve for the end user, just like there is a learning curve when a customer goes from a "squared" TDM setup to a "pooled" button setup. If you develop the proper training materials, I find training to be no more difficult than TDM.

If I sell a IP phone system out of my region and it is a large system (hundreds of phones) I would fly a tech in to train. If it is a smaller system, training can be effectively done via a webinar.

Feature or Benefits of IP:
I find it hard to believe you guy are not jumping up and down about what an astrix IP phone system can do that a TDM system cannot.
If you chose the right system and it is not IPitomy, the benifits are huge IMHO, and it is an easy to sell less expensive solution to the end user, some cases it is the same cost as TDM.

1- Having the choice of hundreds of phones, rather than the three or four choices TDM offers is better for the vendor and the end user. Also, as cool phones with cool new gadgets hit the market (seems like every month) you are always guaranteed to have the latest and greatest.
2- Apps for smart phones, It is pretty cool to download Fring (Free App) on your Droid, IPhone or smart phone and your phone becomes an extension off your phone system. Lets say you at place where you have no cell service but you have Wifi, no problem, switch to Wifi.
3- ACD that announces to the caller there postion in the cue and the average wait time (standard feature)
4- Voice Mail to Email (Standard feature)
5- Automatic call recording of all calls (standard feature)
6- CDR Call detail reporting (standard feature) no additional server or software required.
7- No special phone required if you want to use your phone at home, just reprogram the phone to be remote and take it home, reprogramming can be done by the user right at his console on his work station.
8- Soft phones are FREE
9- NEVER a charge for License Fees.
10- Add 1 phone or 1000 phones, all you need is the phone, no cards to buy like TDM phone systems.

There are many more benefits. When you have an open source software like this that tens of thousands of Geeks are improving on a daily basis, and a manufacture that has a good gooey, I find it impossible that a TDM manufacture could compete and this is why the TDM market share is declining so rapidly.

I am happy to read that so many phone vendors are so negative about this technology and that the are in denial. This make my job and my success getting a sale much easier. I just wish you all were in my neck of the woods :toothy:

Just my experience and 2C

Walter

I'm still not touching this topic with a 10-foot pole

Only one comment, about ASTERISK specifically. No BLF/DSS capability. Oh sure there's an add-on that creates a BLF on a computer at the users desk, but that means he/she needs MORE computer, or ANOTHER computer/screen/keyboard/mouse. I don't know about the capabilities of the ASTERISK private label systems
Also applies to the pure IP systems that have no "controller" so to speak.

Not true by any stretch of the imagination, tons of DSS/BLF options, meaning, side cars like TDM phone systems.

As far as the free software for a computer screen, you don't need another computer, if you want to view it all the time you upgrade your video card (cheap) and add a monitor, also cheap.
By the way, doing that opens another whole world for other applications, which equal more money to be made!!!

You guys are really in the dark ages, hope my posts get you out of there.

Walter

I like the hybrid systems like IPO, BCM, MBX etc... You can get the cost savings of TDM and also the added applications when needed. These seem to be a better solution than the straight up VOIP applications like Asterisk or Cisco for example. But we can all agree that the lines of distinction are becoming very blurred. Even using digital sets, most of new the KSU/PBX units are server based now.

walterv, there is nothing here that is really dark ages. There is no advantage to having 25 types of different sip phones running on a system..I call that a nightmare..esp if you do have dss/blf. Asterisk is also open source, which means that you have no manufacturer to back you up if something fails or does not work properly. In fact, Asterisk is so customizable, that it reminds me of the 70's and 80's where every business was held hostage by their programmers custom coding...good luck jumping in to a system you DIDN'T program. Also, not everyone wants to run 2 computer screens just to have phone functionality. Space = money in an office environment. BTW one of the biggest beefs I have with Shoretel is that the manager is DAMN cool..unfortunately you HAVE to have a PC to really get good use out of that phone. There is nothing dark ages about 5-9's, support and the ability to find another vendor that can pick up wherever you left off in short time.

Coral,
I don't have 25 different phones running on one phone system, maybe two or three. But on the sale, if need be, the customer has many more choices than TDM. That's all I was saying. Hey, if the customer wanted 100 different phones running on one system I can do that, TDM cannot, and if this scenario existed, I would win the sale where TDM would not and would get paid to make this happen, nightmare, nope, more money to be made, yup, winning a sale and getting a customer, yup.

TDM has it's space, but that space is shrinking, TDM in the future will be the jobs I won't even want to be involved in.

As an old timer and soon to have my son take the wheel, all I can tell you is I have been there and done that. What I mean by that is early in my day it went like this:

1A2, solid as a rock, you can actually fix a phone, who needs those stupid features, 1A2 can do all the features you need, the rest is all BS.

Voice Mail, that will never fly, very expensive and companies will lose business, nothing is better than speaking to a live person.

Hope you get where I am coming from, those that don't, will be left out to dry while companies like mine will be eating at your table.

Again, Just My 2C

Walter

Well walterv, if the customer wants to use SIP phone on the systems we sell they sure can. Why they would want to do that I have no idea...in fact I don't even see how that is even a selling point. Although, I do have quite a few systems in the 1000-3000 port range where they use any single line they want..oh and I can push that out over 13k from the system.

TDM, just more business for me. Best VOIP (or rather TOIP) systems out there are hybrids (IMHO) so I get the best of both world with support.

My table is pretty big right now with a TON of companies that are out of business (my former competition)..which we acquired customers. Good luck...and 18 years and going strong!

Coral Tech

I have now upgraded the pole that shall not touch this subject to 20-feet.

LOL Kumba. For the sake of keeping it clean I won't touch THAT with a 20 foot 1 inch pole!

Remember when we use to read “Telephony” magazine and we would get all excited to see a review on the PBX we supported. I followed the trade mag every month and still do but it is now called “Internet Telephony”. You may see something on AVAYA now and then but most of the time it lists products most of us have never heard of and if you do not pick one up for 6 months you are lost when you do pick it up again. The new world of telecom may not be everyone's favorite but the market is moving to next generation converged networks according to my media outlets.

I would love to have a mag sent to my mail box that is pushing traditional CPE offerings. What magazines do you guys get now that have features on ESI, NEC, Vertical, Mitel, Toshiba, Siemens...

Thanks in advance,
Rob

"Although, I do have quite a few systems in the 1000-3000 port range where they use any single line they want..oh and I can push that out over 13k from the system. [Smile]"

I don't get what your saying???

Rob,
The reason you see what you see is because our industry has changed and is changing at a rapid pace.
We have two types of thought on this, denial or acceptance. Denial for the inevitable is not the right choice IMHO. Acceptance and positioning yourself is the right choice IMHO.

The posture of negative selling against complete IP solutions is getting weak, sure four years ago it would work, today, it is a tough sell if you have an educated sales person.

Hybrid is great, don't get me wrong, but it does not compare to a full IP solution implemented properly and on its own network. I will go one step further, it does not compare to a full IP solution implemented properly on a current network.

Coral,
The left and the right coast move at a faster pace, my market in NY, dictates what I sell and support. If you were where I am now, and you will soon be (few years) you will get my posts then.

Honestly,
Wish I was in your arena still, just not the case here.

Those that sell against IP based systems, with the ridiculous claims of less features. harder to use, and not as reliable, better revisit those claims, it is simply not true, and can easily be proved.

Just My 2C in my little neck of the woods


Walter

13k feet from the phone system over regular copper pair with TRUE 90V Bellcore standard.

Same here. We have a lot of customers in campus environments, where there may be many buildings thousands of feet away from the switch that only require a handful of SLTs. Show me an IP solution that can do this without thousands of dollars worth of 'extenders' or other 'servers' that can provide such a simplistic expectation and I'll eat your hat.

What about OSP situations with cable plant? What about tools and test equipment that cater to traditional industry standards? What about reference to ground? It ain't so simple once the phones are outside of the four walls.

IP phones at the home of the boss or even as wide-reaching as remote workers? Hell yes! I'm all over that concept. With the exception of the reliance upon the public Internet, these are excellent scenarios for the use of VoIP. That is where it ends and sanity has to step into control.

Sorry, Walter (and you know that I love to bust your chops), but IP will only capture the market when it can address ALL scenarios, and anyone who understands our industry knows that this concept of reality is years away at best.

Don't get me wrong: I was all over the concept of '1A3' and sold a bunch of those systems, but even then, I knew that the concept was full of holes. I was not wrong in my thinking. We look back at those systems as a joke these days, despite the fact that they were 'cutting-edge'. We laugh at systems that use more than one pair these days.

How come Microsoft decided to bail out of VoIP? Bill Gates owns the computing industry and he is obviously very smart. Has anyone ever wondered why such a man of his power and expertise would just ditch what is such supposed technology?

It is difficult to hug a new technology (with VoIP on its third roll-out after two debacles over two dedades) that still can't address the rigors of the real world. When it really works and replaces the industry-standard, I'll welcome it with open arms. Until then, I'm going to have to stick with what works and what can do the job.

On a side note: I have customers who paid to have fiber drops run to every desktop in 1993 that remain coiled in the outlet boxes, unterminated. Sure, FTTD was the sign of the times, but now it is nothing but a bunch of wasted glass (and money). I visited one today and they suggested that we use the vacated fiber as drag lines for the new copper that they need (CAT5e). I chuckled (in my mind, of course).

I still have to face the customer and refuse to lie to them. Things are different here.

Forget features and continuity lets start with the box itself...

I am not selling another 3-4 generation product that requires software on PCs to run UM or needs third party drivers to perform screen pops. I do not want my customers calling me to ask why they lost their enhance tool bar on their Outlook or complain about the fax mail. I am not offering any product that takes hours to restore when it crashes and requires me to keep a bunch of parts in stock. I do not want an external server for Call Center, reports or other enhancements and I do not want to unplug and plug it back up half the times I am called to fix it.

It should work 99% of the time and can be fixed within 10 min after the customer calls in a problem even if it is Super Bowl Sunday. Now what is going to provide this to my customers? TDM or VoIP technology?

So you don't stock any parts for TDM Systems? Or am I to assume their magical white boxes have somehow less swappable parts then a VoIP's white box? Or are you saying that the network switch is this extraordinary increase in parts count?

That whole argument seems wrong for some reason. Every time I think of a TDM system, I think of the chassis/CPU, CO cards, expansion cards, then feature cards (like VM/etc). That also isn't including the ancillary devices I usually see spread around the backboard, like paging interfaces, voicemail sometimes, MOH devices, call loggers/recorders, etc.

Most of the VoIP systems I see (granted, I see them at vendor booths in trade-shows) are usually one box that does the majority of it. They seem to have very few (if any) internally selectable or even swappable parts, and about the only external devices they use seem to be a paging interface and maybe MOH (Sometimes that's just a radio).

You seem to be painting with a very broad brush. I won't even go into the whole call center subject as I could talk ad-nauseum about that (unfortunately). All I'll say is that some of our happiest clients come from the commercial PBX market (both TDM and VoIP).


Now that's just silly. Neither TDM or VoIP will provide that to your customers unless you carry a complete compatible spare of their entire system in your inventory, throw it in the truck every time you roll out to them, and have a recent back-up of configurations including voicemail. And that's even assuming the part that is broke can be diagnosed and swapped out in 10 minutes upon your opening of the closet.

Guess I should have upgraded to that 30-foot pole.

Kumba,
We finally got you to play along!!

I forgot to tell you the customer requires BR & DR located off site in another time zone for no additional cost and if for any reason the power fails at his office, he needs his calls continued to be answered by the auto attendant and routing redirected to maybe his cell phones.

Oh and in a few weeks his call traffic is going to triple so he needs his voice channels turned up then and put back to normal a few weeks later plus he will need to borrow about 25 call center seats during that time but you can have them back when it is slow again.

James, you've been punked.

That just sounds like a typical phone call with a hosted customer. We get those a few times a week. Usually followed by promises of "all my friends" coming onboard our service as well.

And yup, just upgraded that pole to 30-feet.

Sorry Kumba. You are the moderator so you should know better. Anyway thanks for playing and I hope we can talk more in the future without the bashing please.

Everyone have a great cloudy day!

It's all in good spirit (I hope)

A lot of this conversation is focused on the customer side of the demarc, which makes sense considering that this is an interconnect forum. But the bigger picture of the future of the Public Switched Telephone System is also an issue, and may be the real determining factor in the end. Most readers remember the brief burst of news reports a few years back regarding the FCC request for input on eliminating the PSTN as we currently know it in favor of an all IP based system. "Eliminate" meant just that: No more POTS local loops, no more switched connections, no more Digital Hierarchy based on the DS0 building block, no more SS7.

Astute readers will be quick to point out that change in this area has been occurring from the "top down" for decades, with more and more long-distance PSTN traffic being shifted from high bitrate synchronous optical networks over to high bitrate optical networks that use ethernet. But the FCC request was going all the way with it: They were talking about having no POTS phone service connections at all. If every home and business in the country had only a "broadband" connection to the local CO, then the choice to use IP telephones would already be made for most people. They would buy a phone that plugs directly into the ethernet jack installed in their wall by the local phone company.

So will it happen? Well, therein lies the rub. An ethernet-only connection to the local CO is easy to provide in urban and suburban areas, but what about truly rural areas? The FCC's own offices are located in one of the most densely populated parts of the country, and one might wonder if FCC officials have ever done anything other than "fly over" the heartland. Here is a news flash: The Unites States is a big country. Really big. Many telephone subscribers in rural areas are located many tens of miles from the nearest CO or remote consolidation point - a distance that would be very expensive indeed to span with a medium capable of carrying broadband. The Universal Service Decree of the last century saw to it that these folks could have a PSTN connection, but no such decree exists for broadband. The US Department of Agriculture's RUS division [Rural Utility Service, formerly the Rural Electrification Administration] has made it clear for years that they will not provide loans for POTS-only construction projects, but this policy has had little [or no] beneficial effect: Small rural phone companies have seldom been able to develop a business plan which could show a profit [let alone break even] from providing a broadband connection to a few dozen customers spread out over hundreds or even thousands of square miles. Instead, such companies now have to "go it alone," with no backing from the RUS to maintain their POTS-only plants. One wonders just how the FCC "All IP Network" plan is supposed work in these areas.

One thing is for sure, we really do live in interesting times.

Jim Bennett
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The future? Yeah, I've heard of that.

I sure like the way you think, Jim. Well said. Very well said.

OK Ed, I will bite

"Sorry, Walter (and you know that I love to bust your chops), but IP will only capture the market when it can address ALL scenarios, and anyone who understands our industry knows that this concept of reality is years away at best."

What scenario can TDM do, that IP cant?

I ask this not being a wise A$$, but rather to educate me.

Listen guys,
I hate this also and have sold against it successfully for many years, the tide has changed in my neck of the woods and I need to listen to what is being dictated from my customers.

I also see huge advantages to the end user and to us.

Back in the day (the older guys will get this) when a manual was called a "practice" not anyone could pick it up and run with it. We were protected and could earn our margins. That ship sailed many moons ago in my neck of the woods.

With the internet and the computer geeks eating off our plate I see where this game is going and am positioning myself to still be a player.

My next move is to be more involved and offer computer related services, if not, we will be done.

Years back, the telephone guy was your "go to person" for communications, this is not true today.
The shift has gone to the IT guy or "computer geek"

Right, wrong, better or worse, this is the reality in my neck of the woods I deal with.

In my world I have two options. Have a system that is IT friendly, or compete with the IT guy and his business.

I am doing both, I am tired of having the IT guy eating on my plate, time to eat at his plate!!

Just My 2C

Walter, can I assume that when you say TDM you are also including all conventional phone systems? If so, please allow me to reiterate the application that Ed and Coral Tech are talking about, that of the large campus-sized PBX.

Here is a diagram of a typical phone extension on a large PBX that one might find on a college campus, military base, large hospital complex, etc:

PBX switch > main distribution frame > miles of copper > protector block > inside wire > POTS phone

Now here is the same phone extension, on an all-IP system, using currently available equipment:

IP Phone "Switch" > [ethernet] > ethernet over SHDSL "C" card > MDF > miles of copper that may have to be upgraded to different cable in order to handle dozens or even hundreds of high-cap circuits on the same piece of PIC > SHDSL repeaters or extenders for longer runs > more copper that may need upgraded > protector block > ethernet over SHDSL "R" card > [ethernet] > inside wire that will need to be replaced with CAT5e or better > IP phone

Wow, that is one spicy meatball.

Jim
**************************************************
The future? Bring your checkbook.

....who ultimately has to contact the "Old Go-To Person" to find the answers he needs.

That's why we see so many of them here on this board as well as others.

I seem to have misplaced my ten foot pole.

Until ISPs such as Cox make QOS standard on their public networks....I will stick to selling hybrid or if you prefer...converged technology systems. Also I have IT guys coming to me for help more than the other way around.

Jim,
With all do respect, what the hell are you talking about????

"large campus"

OK, I too again will bite on this?????

If they have data, they have phones.... !!!, If they don't have data, who needs phones???

You guys are scaring me

"If they have data, they have phones.... !!!, If they don't have data, who needs phones??? "

Oh, I don't know..someone who needs the use of a phone regardless? Call me crazy.....are you sure you are in the phone business?

You can borrow my 30-foot pole if you want. It's just long enough to watch the train wreck without being in it.

I will say that there is a definite economy of scale for SIP vs TDM. In my experience that has been around 4+ T1's. At that point SIP (even over T1) becomes less costly, denser, and more versatile. Other then that, TDM is the better option. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

As far as what goes on the customer's desk, you explain to them their options, give them the quotes, and make your case for recommendations. If they decide they want IP, sell it and charge them. If you did your job right, the customer's expectations meet what you delivered.

Walter does have one good point. If you can't give the customer what they think they need, they will find it elsewhere. It all goes back to that old saying "The customer is always right, even when they are wrong".

Everything else is just secondary in my opinion.

:thumb: @ Kumba

Walter, thank you. You have opened my eyes - I have been struggling for years to understand this new-fangled century with all its "apps" and "twitters" and "i-this" and "my-that." Now I get it: A person or business either has a broadband connection, or they ain't sh**. I have wasted my life trying to keep all these people connected - had I known they did not matter, I would have told them all to get lost years ago.

Jim
**************************************************
The future? Some people aren't invited.

since most people can do both on their "smart phone "why do they need either ?

A lot of my customer base is small business. They could function without phones, or without the internet, for a short time. They could not, function without both. So most of them prefer to keep things somewhat seperate. I agree with Derrick that "hybrid" is the way to go, and I think we are going to see a push in that direction. I wouldn't call VOIP a fad, but I would say it has been overhyped and like it was said, until QOS issues are addressed, there will be many unhappy people.

Tongue and Cheek, you did not get that.

Right over my head..nothing new there,,just ask my wife..lol.

Just trying to share to fellow people in an industry that is changing faster than I can change my socks. At times I am not the best to articulate my message or intentions, sorry for that. I appreciate the help I have received on other venues, would like to leave it at that.
I gain nothing by trying to share my thoughts and where I see today's market going, hope you all get that.
I will, in the future just feed and not contribute, learned my lesson.

Regards
Walter

walterv, please DO contribute, some of us want to learn. The only way we do is to be given the tools! I for one want your thoughts, as well as industry info! John C.

John,
I hear the negativity, I get that. In the mean time, my solution, what I do, just locked up a 600k job.
Denial of open source and IP is not going to put food on the table.
Our customers our demanding this, and yes, it does work and works well.

Walter

"Just trying to share to fellow people in an industry that is changing faster than I can change my socks."
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Couldn't resist my version, courtesy of Tom McCahill, automotive writer for Popular Mechanics years ago.

"Changes hands faster than a bar of soap"

Hi Walter

I am from your neck of the woods. I hear your pain as the IT folks are looking to do your jobs. But why are you so sold on just a pure IP solution. What is wrong with a hybrid? I looked at your web site and see ESI, NEC etc. All good brands. Why go pure IP? I am not asking to be wise guy I just do not see the point. Lets say a local Century 21 in Huntington. One office 20 phones. Maybe the boss wants a ip phone at home. Why do some ip system when you could do a nec with an ip phone.?

Jim

When dealing with larger environments, campus or multiplication, it just seems outdated to push anything that is hardware intensive and requires special techs and training for the IT department to admin. The larger the better of course if you can put it in proper the first time. I would highly recommend a managed service provider MSP to these clients They could have a $50,000 monthly phone bill and as a partner of the provider you make 5k-8k per month ($400K over 60 months profit) and the client gets free voip phones. The best part is you do not have to put it in or be out of pocket while it is being installed. This also helps you retain the income if you decide to maybe retire out of this rat race next year or so.

On the 20 phone deal, maybe the customer does not care about VoIP so lets rent them a TDM system maybe even a hybrid and give them a technology upgrade plan that allows you to retain them when they do decide to go VoIP?

Customers are doing their homework taking longer to move forward, giving us more time to worry and be mislead by our inner fears of competition and technology. Most everyone has heard about VoIP so lead with it and if they do not want it they will tell you but if you do not lead with it then they may leave you hanging and then your SOL.

Every phone system I sell is either an IPxxx or an xxxIP. I don't think that the fact it isn't a "pure IP system" is going to hurt me or my customers all that much. I still have a lot of offices networked together and a bunch of ip phones out there as well.

So instead of leaning on a manufacturer to determine the way we do business, why not let the technology itself do so? Today the carrier is leading the way of VoIP driving the technology to do more. As a hardware vendor we have no control over what our hardware manufacturer will decide to do and in the end, to the customer, it is our fault if they do not make the right move in advancements.

This is why I was advising that if we rent the hybrids to the small customers, they will understand that we have some skin in the game and if we do our own homework we will come up with a plan that fit what they will be looking for in the future. The larger clients require a bigger plan that most of us can not offer so let the carrier (an MSP) take care of them. VoIP “end to end” is the best and most successful way to secure your clients. Nothing in the middle to cause them to second guess the decision we helped them make. It works for me and I have been supporting this model for 4 years now.

Jim,
I am not an all IP player, or do I recommend an all IP play. Most cases, I don't recommend IP. IP IMHO is a hype word that the end user does not have a grip on, but those initials (IP, VOIP)makes them think they are state of the art.

Hybrid is great and a small application IMHO, is the way to go.

Larger systems,the customers will benefit huge by having an full IP play, and that IP play will be best fitted by being Astrix based.

As you noted, yes, ESI, NEC and to add a few more, Toshiba, Tadiran, and Avaya are good systems, but those systems cannot compare to a Astrix system like Xorcom.

Just My 2C, 30 plus years in this business

walterv--How many users/phones would you consider as a "small" application.

Also, coming from the carrier world I do not know that we totally want QoS standard on our network. I see some benefits for us carriers but it would be more beneficial for everyone else.

On the topic of Hosted IP--one of our competitors is practically giving away their Hosted IP product. They are telling their customers who have Mitel and Nortel that they do not support it anymore (even though they have the techs to do so). They see Hosted IP as the future. I can agree with that to a certain extent. Where I can't is office's with 8-10 users or less or 35 users or more. A local phone/IP converged system is more cost effective in most instances with the smaller number of users plus most of these locations only have a $50 to $100 "residential" broadband connection being ran by a $75 router and switch--these locations need some serious upgrading to their network before IP is an option. We do phone systems and Hosted IP so we are battling this from both sides. I agree with what has been said in previous posts you have to offer what the customer wants or you will starve.

And therein lies the issue with most of the hosted companies operating over the internet (specifically selling mostly over the internet). They outright do not care what you have, or they gloss over the bandwidth and LAN requirements. Generally it is "up to the user" to find out if they have the required LAN and bandwidth and the user either does not know so ignores it, or thinks "well it will be OK anyway". It is the responsible company that installs a solid product on a solid network. That and most of the small companies offering hosted service do not have the man power or knowledge to properly troubleshoot real issues that are not simple fixes.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a hosted system itself, it is the quality of the install and the company supplying the service. But, isn't that the case with all telephony?

Steve

The real problem is some companies (customers) throwing these "buzz" words around and they don't have the first clue about VoIP. They think since they have a broadband connection it will be sufficient for whatever they want to do with it. They will say well "we are paying for a 20/2 or 50/5 connection I should be able to anything." They do not want to understand the difference between a shared (cable modem/dsl) and a dedicated connection. We are actually the ISP as well. We give our customers our preferred option for Hosted IP and a secondary option. Of course the preferred option is usually more expensive b/c it involves a dedicated circuit. They can't (or don't want to) realize this. This is the problem that is faced. For the most part in my market 95% of our customers are not ready for VoIP, but 40-50% think they need it. When asked what they hope to gain they just kind of sit there with a lost look on their face. But none the less this is the way this industry is moving. So we might as well accept it.

Well we can always hope that providers (especially CLECS) will do a better job with voip than they have with digital circuits, pots and ground start trunks.

VoIP is a pretty well accepted solution, SIP has taken the world by storm and the UC push now has taken the front page on communications forums worldwide. The push is based upon communicate anywhere, with anything at anytime and that is where the architecture shift is truly based. The fact of the matter is that there will be legacy telephony around for a long time but what customers and consultants are asking for is IP based communications as a service not as nuts and bolts. I am a phone guy going back a while though probably not as far as some of you. I realized a long time ago that things were changing and embraced it. I personally have seen a push in just the past 5 years from about 20% VoIP sales to now over 80% of sales are pure VoIP. Softswitch architecture is the future, embrace it or get left behind. A simple look at margin declines can convince you pretty easily that the days of hardware based systems paying the bills are short lived. That is my $02.

>>MooreTel
so true.
I have seen what they do up up close. they have no craft.

Hosted solutions are garbage and not the best option for anyone .......... just like Centrex was / is a horrible solution.

Buy your own, equipment, shop for the best deal on your dial tone and you will be WAY AHEAD.

One of biggest arguments against voip is the cost of upgrading wiring to use it. Well I recently discovered a new product made by Phybridge. It will allow the deployment of ip phones over existing cat 3 using one pair. It will allow a distance of 1200 feet from switch to phone as well.
You install the voip "Uniphyer" voip enabler between the data switch the ip system is connected to and your cat 3 IDF using a standard amped 25 pair cable. Then you crossconnect as you normally would either from a 66 or 110 block. At the station end you plug the ip phone into a PhyAdapter (a buscuit jack) which converts the one pair usoc back to ethernet and plug the adapter into the wall jack. No power supply is needed becasue POE is also provided on the one pair from the UniPhyer.

You centrally converge with the customer's data network for access to other sites.
The Phybridge provides POE, QOS and a dedicated path for voice with no interference with the data side.

This system is designed to deploy voip phones. It is not designed to run normal office data applications. The bandwidth per port is 175k down and 2500k up. This is fine for one call per port but is not enough for web browsing.

Here is their link

https://www.phybridge.com/uniphyer-ip-phones.aspx