atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Cabling Telephones Systems Wiring 25 pair termination

We have 2 building split by a small driveway. We have phone lines brought in and terminated with phone system in building A. We have a 66 block with 25 pair terminated in building A going underground to building b where it is terminated again to a 66 block.

Station lines already run terminated to 66 block and cross connect wires to 25 pair block.

Plug in station phones and nothing. They are dead.

So to troubleshoot I terminated a jack with pair 3/4 terminated back to building A. Punched down on block tested and phone turns up.

Went back to building B, terminated to 25 pair 66 block and nothing. So I pull one pair off and terminate the jack directly to the 25 pair. Plug in phone and voila, station turns up.

Why is it that one I terminate the 25 pair to 66 block and then terminate the cross connect going to the station blocks I get nothing.

Has me baffled. 25 pair is good coming into building B.

Are any of these blocks protected? I'm wondering if the clamping voltage of a protective device might be too low for the system's voltage.

Is the block labeled 66M50? You probably need bridging clips.

A toner and a amp wand would have been my first choice to use in troubleshooting..

Why? He isn't trying to trace anything. He's looking for an open circuit. He knows where the (only) cable starts and ends. He knows what pairs he used. (unless he cut them down wrong.) He hears dial tone at the raw wires. He just doesn't hear DT at the other side of the block, where the X-conns are cut down.

OK, I'll spell it out:

A test set (butt set) would be my first choice. Go the side of the 66M block where the incoming cable terminates. Is it a 66M25, 66M50, some other type? Do you hear dial tone? Put the clips exactly opposite the wires on the same block. Dial tone? No? You need bridging clips.

Bridge clips have been used with no success.

I'm not sure I know what you mean be protected. It's just the standard white 66 block with the back mount. Nothing else.

The raw pair terminated to a jack does bring up the phone and has dial tone. Raw pair terminated to the 66 block, cross connect cable terminate to opposite to wall jack we get nothing. I've added bridge clips which are required and still nothing.

As the first responder referenced, I'm wondering if it is a voltage thing. But i've never seen this before and I've done a lot of cabling. Much more than programming that's for sure.

Around here, a lot of house cable is terminated on terminals that have the pins on the block going horizontal instead of vertical. On a normal 66 block, pair one would be tip on pin one and ring on pin two. with these, tip is to the left of the ring pin, so if you punched your jumper down like normal you would be splitting pairs. Sorry, I don't know the technical term of these horizontal type punch down blocks.

I've seen the different ways you are referring to and I'm using what I think is standard horizontal method for newer cabling. I believe the terminating across vertically was used as an older standard.

Take a jack with a short piece of jumper wire on it, and terminate it to the right side of the block, put in your bridge clips, does the phone work in that jack?

If so, make sure you're on the correct I/W, and the pair that you are jumpering to is the same pair terminated on the jack on the wall.

Is the block mounted on a piece of wood? Or is it mounted direct to concrete or block? If it's the second you're block is probably corroded. If it's on wood do as TTT says to isolate where your trouble is.

Is this new? Existing? Ever worked?

I repeat:

Is it a 66M25, 66M50, some other type?

...a simple question:
Are you 100% sure you have the correct 25pr?

I have to agree. Tone & be sure. Could be wrong cable OR could be that the cable feeding that building is bad, cut, or otherwise.

Sounds to me like he has the correct (only) cable.

-----------------------

WHAT IS THE 66 BLOCK TYPE????????????

You say "pair 3/4" which means that you are aware that the T&R wires go to the middle pair of pins in the female 6p6c jack.

You are aware, I hope, that even though the pins in the jack are numbered 3 & 4, the pins you want on the station 66 block are 1 & 2.

So, for instance, if you have run 4-pair station wires, and you have terminated the White/Blue pair on the jack's pins 3/4, you would place your cross-connection wires on the White/Blue pairs on the 66 block, which are actually the first and second pins (not the 3rd and 4th pins) for that station cable.

You should post some pictures :read:

Are these digital phones on an Axxess system? If so...

Reversed polarity to the jack?

Is the jack punched as 568B and you're cross-connected to the orange pair instead of green?

Silly question, but are there two keysets cross-connected to the same port, but in different buildings? That will kill the circuit and neither will work.

Could it be that the 25 pair is bridged tapped to another terminal and when he punches down on the pair a device on the cooresponding bridged tapped 66 block is tripping his dial tone and timing it out?

So many questions, so few answers. Hard to help ya if you don't answer the questions. As stated above pictures might help also.

I think you need to learn how to do simple continuity tests with either an ohm meter or a continuity tester. This is a simple problem that even a greenhorn tech would be expected to solve.

-Hal

Again another IT PERSON that wants to be a Telephone man. Why waste time with this?

Because that's what we do. If you don't want to respond and help you don't have to. We all understand your concerns.

Well Bill how can you help someone that won't answer the questions, kind of like talking to the wall isn't it. :shrug: :shrug:

sounds like the blocks corroded or the pins are split open too far he said if he pulls them off and completes the circuit that way that it works so obviously he has the right cable lol..

See my post of 7 OCT at 2130 hrs. There is a color code problem at or near the far end 66 block or jacks.

That's a good point.

What is being used to punch down on the block? Are you certain that you are making a good, solid connection on the 66 block w/ your jumper wire?

The best solution would be to re-terminate both ends of the 25 pair on 1A4 Bix creating a tie line between buildings. By doing this you now have something to work with. 66 blocks are old school but ok ! Bix is better.

Maybe check your terminations to see if you having the colur codes correct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25-pair_color_code

We could have the never-ending debate of 66 vs 110 vs BIX any time but what's the point.
It has nothing to do with the OP's issue.

What is the designation stamped on the side of the block in building B? Are you trying to install analog or digital sets?

Well this is not by my choice. I'm an IT guy in a company too cheap to pay a true PBX vendor. So I've done a lot of cabling and I feel comfortable with terminating to 66 blocks as I have done a fair amount.

I was away for the weekend which is why the lack of response.

Again, for those that it appears not to have read or just misunderstood.

1 25pair goes from building A to building B. The 25 pair is terminated on both ends to a 66M50 block. The 66 blocks are mounted to drywall/wood not cement or brick. Each location is within a Telco/IT closet.

Stations are terminated to 66M50 blocks and then cross connect wire to the 25 pair.

Stations are dead at the jacks. So in troubleshooting I first unplugged the cross connect at the 66 block. I then terminated a small piece of cross connect to a jack. Terminated that to the opposite side of 25 pair. Still dead. Added bridge clips. Still dead.

I then took the blue/blue white pair of the 25 pair off the 66 block and terminated a jack directly to it. Voila, the station is up.

Yes, at one time this setup did work. A previous tech set it up and is no longer with the company. The building has been empty for about 2 years and now the owner is adding staff back to it.

I though possible corrosion to the blocks so I purchased brand new blocks and reterminated at both building A and building B.

This is a digital Axxess system.

I think I've answered questions asked. I'm really stumped here. Any input greatly appreciated.

And yes, cross connect wires are terminated to orange/orange white pair going to 66 block.

And to Jim, If you want to criticize go elsewhere and do it. I came here for help. Not because I want to but because I need it.

I don't want to be a telephone guy, I have no time for it, I'm an IT guy. Not my fault my company won't pay for the actual PBX vendor to come out and look at it. That's the economy we live in today unfortunately.

Sounds like this might be the direction you should be heading now that we know that you are working with a digital AXXESS.

So in saying reversed polarity, are you saying that when I'm terminating the cross connect I should swap the 2 wires and this is my problem?

Aha! I knew that was the problem. You should be using the blue/white pairs. Case closed.

Like Arthur I'm confused as to why if it works on the W/BL pair you would cross connect to the W/OR pair?

Easy, Arthur!!

Intertel uses the 2nd pair for their digital phones, thus the orange pair on a 568-A jack (and a USOC 2 or 3 pair jack). So he needs to cross connect from the White/Blue pair of the FEED cable to the White/Orange pair of the STATION cable.

If the OP happens to have 568-B jacks, he just needs to cross connect to the green pair of the station cable. Or, if he has USOC jacks, he needs to tie down the 2nd (orange) pair.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'll bet it's the A/B termination that's giving him grief. :thumb:

And they are polarity sensitive. I've had that problem a few times.

Since it works on the Cable and not the block, I would suspect the block.....However you already replace that....

So, her is what we know: In building "B" there is a feed cable coming in.
If you put a Jack on that cable directly, the phone works. (That shows that you are aware of the unique (Polarity and 2nd pair) termination that the phones require).
Once that cable is terminated onto a 66m50 block you are unable to get the phone to come up.

Can you please confirm this next part for us?

On a 66 Block there is 4 pins across (labled A,B,C, and D below)

A B C D
1 -> -> <- <-
2 -> -> <- <-
3 -> -> <- <-
4 -> -> <- <-

Assuming Feed cable is terminated down Column A and that the signl is present at column A. Put a butt set on pins A1, A2 and you should here a high pitch tone to confirm this.You should also have the same tone on pins B1 and B2.
Your cross connect should be coming off of pins B1 and B2. If you have sigle on A1 and A2 and nothing on B1 B2 I would suspect faulty pins on the blocks - The "V" of the pin not contacting the wire properly, but putting the Butt set on the pin allows the "V" to press into the wire giving a false positive. Depending on the condition of the tool used to punch the wires
down, can cause this. Sometimes rocking the tool horizontally while on th epin can close up th e"V" and allow better contact.
You did raise two things that makes me question the initial termination. These may or may not have any bearing on your problem though.
1) you pulled the Blue pair off of the 66 block...this isn't easily doe if it was terminated in the typical way - not sure if there is a correct tension guidline out there - since the wires are fairly tight. Terminating it back down would be even harder.
2) you reterminated the whole setup on a new block. There again, depending how the cable was initally installed, that may have proved somewhat difficult.

I'm at a different office today but I will check a few things. I'm not sure what the old jacks are. I honestly never even thought to check that.

The new jacks that will be installed on Wednesday are RJ25 Cat3 USOC jacks.

Gentlemen, this topic has been old school technician brainstorming at its best. I learned some new stuff from it !!

No! RJ25 will make steam come from Ed and Hal's ears! It's a 6 pin jack!!

Try squeezing the IDC clips lightly with needle nose pliers ! then

That's what was originally there and that's what the company had left over. Just following what is already in place.

As i've said, i'm an IT guy not a phone guy, what would be the better option?

I was just saying that the RJ designations are incorrect.
Do you have a local vendor you can call in for more advanced help?

Yes but it's not an option because the owner does not want to pay. I've been through this already, I've actually had to do a lot of PBX work outside of what I know because the company elects not to pay professionals.

Try telling your boss something like:

"I only have two hands, a left & a right. I therefore cannot perform miracles. Either pay someone who knows what he's doing, or go without."

It's that simple. Today's economy is no excuse.

i have a lot of trouble understanding what the op saying but it seems to me he could figure this out himself with just a continuity checker, a cheap cable tester, a cheap voltmeter or a flashlight battery and bulb (if you want to do this mcguyver style).

I'm still thinking it could very well be a polarity issue. The Axxess phones ARE polarity sensitive and at times I've had to roll pairs on the cross connects to make them work.

Polarity issues are so easily analyzed, after all, there's only two ways a pair can be terminated.

Polarity can also be inadvertently reversed, by using different manufacturers' jacks and cords. Remember, an "RJ11" or "RJ14" type cord is supposed to have a natural reversal built in, but I have encountered off-shore cords that do not reverse the pairs. I have a pile of them here that I bought for about a penny apiece on Ebay.

However, getting back to this mind-numbing thread, it seems incredible to me that a smart, educated, IT person cannot figure out the simplest polarity problem, if that's what's causing this.

Step one: find the last place along the circuit that the phone works correctly.

Step two: extend the pair to the next point and test again.

My goodness, it's like trying to get water to run down hill. It's not rocket surgery, gentlemen.

bump no answers yet? :bang: :bang:

Still waiting!!

It must be my kind and gentle approach. Every time I offer some down-to-earth advice, along with questions that need to be answered, I get ignored.

It's just like talking to my first wife.

The OP is involved with porting numbers at 9 sites - his plate is pretty full this week.