atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums VOIP Phones & IP PBX Networking Transfer data across copper lines

I have a customer who has a 50 pair cable connecting it's main building with a warehouse about a quarter mile away. The cable was put in several years ago and no one bothered to put any fiber in for a data feed. They have been using a wireless bridge, but it is failing, slow, and expensive to replaced. Anyone got any ideas or know of any equipment that could connect a couple of hubs or switches by using standard copper feed lines.

I've always strung fiber for stuff like that. :-) That said, a quick Google search turned up this <a href="https://www.rad.com/Article/0,6583,10937,00.html">company</a> with a wired network bridge that can run up to 10mbps over a distance of 1600ft. Sounds cute and if they are on wireless then 10mbps might not be that big of a difference.

On the flip side of this, if they already have copper run that distance, how much would it be to bundle a six string of multimode fiber for the link? I would guess somewhere in the ballpark of the $10,000 it cost the company I work for now to do it for right at 1000ft. But that was also for 50 pair of copper, 3 punchdowns blocks with lightning protection, and the outdoor rated fiber. If they want speed you can run at 100mbps over the fiber, or maybe even, with the proper ports in the switches, 1GBs. Plenty bandwidth for most companies internal needs :-)

Hope this helps,
Honig

[This message has been edited by Honig (edited April 04, 2003).]

you can deploy a DSL link over that copper. Yes, your own DSL units at each end of the copper pair and achieve 10 or 100mb/s (maybe 100mb not sure) connection. check out adtran or patton electronics in maryland.

let us know how it worked out.

Zane:
Get with me. We also deploy dsl products in hotels and campus enviroments and this would be a similar applications.
dan

I was wondering if since he has a dry pair running between the two sites if he could run DSL between them. Thanks for the info jsaad. :-)

Honig

You've got a couple of options:

A) You can use DSL over the 50 pair cable. If you remember back when telcos would allow you to get a dead pair of copper for things like security alarms, and you could have it terminate wherever you wanted -- people used to use that all the time with framerelay... so yes, you can find DSL products that'll let you do a point to point applications. Be warned, the speed isn't that high...

B) You can EASILY make that wireless connection work. Their antenna is the key element. A point to point wireless connection requires a pretty finely tuned directional antenna, and I tell you what works perfectly... older mini-dish sattelites. I've used those for up to 5 miles away. You can get 10MBps speed on those as well.

Any of these options isn't going to get you super high speed like fiber would. I think if your customer wants something that's usable speed wise, they need to trench and put in some new cable...

I also agree with the wireless aspect. Many tend to fear wireless, but it's the low end items and the recent trend. We have been utilizing wireless networks for years. Speed is only limited by your equipment and the amount you want to spend. For a 10Mbps link, the cost is actually pretty low and easy to install even for a novice.

[This message has been edited by DARCOMdan (edited April 06, 2003).]

They currently have the wireless setup, but it is getting old and needs replaced. They would rather just do away with it. They would probably be pretty excited if they could get 10 mbps much less 100. Any idea of a rough cost for some of these DSL units?

I can't remember who manufactured the point to point units.

I recall reading an article on somewhere like PC World or some other PC magazine in regards to seeing if your telco would still allow dead copper runs -- as people were using that to form internet cooperatives, where one house has a T1, and all of the other houses in the neighborhood connected via that dead copper and shared the access, of course when the telcos figured out that was happening... they did away with it.

Let me do some research using the almighty google, and I'll get back to you.

What's the approximate age on that 50 pair? You're going to want to do some extensive testing with a meter for shorts and what not, and also for any crosstalk -- this stuff is super sensitive to any noise. But... 50 pair underground cable is usually pretty solid -- so you should be in good shape.

Looks like I came through for you!

Here's the equipment I was thinking of.

This is a PDF spec sheet on Paradyne's etherloop series of bridges.

https://www.paradyne.com/pdf_central/etherloop.pdf

That product should do exactly what you need it to, and they're not too pricey.

Another option, that will do nearly the same thing -- for way cheaper, but I can't find any 100% documentation on, is Efficient/Flowpoint's Speedstream 5250 -- here's an ebay search for them, they're about 15 bucks a piece:

https://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=SpeedStream+5250+

They supposedly will auto configure to the highest speed possible considering line conditions. That could be something worth trying if they actually work.

I found a slashdot article that chronicles basically the same problem:

https://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/03/01/30/1739238.shtml?tid=137

I think you'll find a solution within those ideas.

Take a look at other speedstream models, 5260 supposedly has better long reach capability.

And my final in a series of replies

The paradyne units are about 250 at this company:

https://www.pcconnection.com/scripts/productdetail.asp?product_id=317642

And that certifies that they should work with what you need them to do.

I lied.

One more thing I have to say.

I'm not sure what their current network topology is -- if they're using some wireless bridges, I'm assuming they're either using a router at both ends, or they're using a wireless bridge/gateway that uplinks into their hubs and switches. The thing that gets complicated (and you may need to subcontract this out to an IT company of some sort) is that you've got to set up their routers to know when to route to the DSL or to keep it in their LAN. Basically, you'll be looking at two LANs with a WAN connecting them.

Just a reminder... but if it's already working using bridges, you basically would just be replacing those -- so maybe not even a problem.

I'm in our Fultonville, NY office this week, and low and behold, I noticed that the office here is connected to the plant down the street by *dry pair DSL* over an exsisting pair of copper. The local IT vendor here put it in a year or more ago and they have had very few problems with it. The vendor said the DSL boxes for both ends of the cable ran about 200 dollars a piece.

(I'm the new IT director at my company and so as such I'm still finding new equipment in the most unlikely places.)

The speed is around 1.5Mbps and seems pretty lag free as far as accessing the servers and email stored in the office and in remotely.

Just figured I would throw 2 more cents in. :-)

Honig