atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information Phone System Recommendations

We have quotes by three vendors for different systems. All three vendors have good references and appear to be able to do the job. Pricing is pretty comparable. We are a 10 person office - with no real special needs though speaker quality for conference calls is important. We are not interested in IP phones.

The three systems quoted are:

NEC ipk II
Toshiba CIX 100
Avaya IP Office 500

Can anyone comment on the pro's / con's of each of these systems?

They are all excellent big name phone systems and have the same general features renamed to their liking. The most important aspect is the installing dealer and post-install support and training. I'm sure someone will chime in soon enough about the systems but beware of the bias. I sell and maintain Toshiba so I'd go with the Toshiba.

If you need a second opinion or quote or have general questions, I can help you.

714-751-8343, Shawn

I would be interested in seeing your quotes. Not the entire quotes broken down but just the bottom line.

Please remember that prices need to be sent via private message or email.

I question the quote of the Avaya IP Office 500. Why was that system quoted to an office of 10 when Avaya has been installing the Partner ACS for decades and pleasing a huge number of end users in doing so. Hard to argue with reliability and a proven track record.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

FYI - We are going to direct dial with PRI.

The only 3 reasons I could think of using an IP 500 vs Partner ACS with 10 phones would be:
Using a PRI(full or partial) or SIP trunks,
Needing a more advance Voicemail solution, or
Conferencing capabilities. (This would be the #1 reason going by the limited info in the original post)

The IP500 conference bridge is far better than the other 2 choices listed and the ACS

The most importent thing is the maximum number of Conferensies you are going to have at one session. If not more then 3 Norstar MICS is the best and the chipest way to go.

Of those three, I'd choose the Toshiba. I don't like the NEC quality and the IP Office is a bit much for a 10 person office. Also, for the conference room phone, I'd go with an analog Polycom Soundstation2, great quality sound and full duplex speaker function.

Having said that, if you had a 4th choice I'd get a quote from me, for an ESI system. :thumb:

https://www.esi-estech.com/video/?chosenFile=Halvid

I would recommend Toshiba too... but it really does come down to service these days.

Anyone can sell you a phones system that has IP, Voice-mail, PRI, Paging, etc., etc., etc.

Those are all features, you should choose the company that has been around the longest and or with the best reference list and talk to the existing customers.

My vote would be to consider a Panasonic TDA100. Now who sells those? Hmmm? Oh wait, we do!
Seriously, I think the Panasonic is superior to Toshiba, Avaya, and NEC and that's based on years of dealing with all of the mentioned product lines. Since you're in Southern California if you're interested in a quote please contact me.

(951)242-0552 x213

I might agree with the Panasonic being better than the other three. But the ESI is better than the Panasonic, just ask me. :dance: :banana:

Hey Kevin, I've got a lead for some programing and maintenace on a Pansonic system here in Temecula, if your interested. PM me.

Ok, where is the Allworx guy when you need him?

Guys, you are a bunch of cut-ups.....when are you going to take this show on the road?

:rofl:

Irvine? HMMMMMMM.....Toshiba USA right in your back yard.

All are good equipment manufacturers, all (as well as many other systems) can do what you want, and, all being equal, it still comes down to the installation company you decide on. Don't just check references, go the the jobsites and play with the system that is being used and equipped as yours will be.

Good Luck.

You guys ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Ya'll are like wolves on a chicken in the barnyard. The member apparently has narrowed down their future purchase already plus there is the sales weasel pushing the PRI into the mix. The last thing this member needs is more systems to consider. It is obvious by the 3 systems listed that their brain has already been scrambled.

I could have easily said that an ESI system was a far better choice than the best of those 3 but I didn't.

I could have easily said that an ESI was going to be more cost effective than the lowest of those 3 but I didn't.

I could have ask if those 3 systems included integrated Voicemail (like ESI does) but I didn't.

I wanted to address the possibilities of DID without purchasing it from the service provider (easy to do on an ESI) but I didn't.

I wanted to bring up the costs of future service and remote maintenance which ESI has those 3 beat hands down but I didn't.

If this member returns to us for our professional opinions on those 3 systems I believe we should take the high road and help them with what they have chosen even though we all know the systems we represent are a better choice by far.

Notice how I left out the shameless plug for the top notch ESI System from an ESI dealer on the other end of the country that has no financial interest in the future purchase this member will soon be making.

new member BHolz

BHOLZ

OOOOPS!!
Take a look at ShoreTel, if you are weighing all your options; it can't hurt.

Shoretel? didnt he say voice quality is important....

Like Kumba once said, you might as well be arguing religion...

3 great systems there, you might as well go with the one whose phones best fit your dacor...

KLD has a point Toshiba is in your town....

Why a PRI for such a small office?

We want direct dial, haven't heard about a siginificantly cheaper option and aren't interested in VOIP.

I haven't said anything here but I agree with Paul. Sounds like you have been handed a bill of goods as far as DID and PRI too. 10 extensions? I have more than that and 5 lines in my house.

Any small system with an auto attendent will work fine for you. I'm partial to the Avaya Partner and it's got to be much cheaper that what these guys propose.

-Hal

You can still get analog DID's can't you? Depending on how many you need a PRI may be more cost effective.

I still don't know how he figured he was going to need DID. Sounds like a sales weasel sold him on it.

-Hal

We have been told that we could get analog DID's but it wouldn't save us that much money and the conferencing issues we have now (weak sound) wouldn't be resolved.

Also, we have a Partner ACS system (6 years old)now configured but not currently for DID. Some vendors say we can upgrade to DID, some say we can't. When upgrading has been quoted, it has been significant and probably not worth the cost or effort.

True. AA with voice announcement "If you know your parties extension dial it now" much cheaper.

Of course we don't know what it is that's trying to be accomplished so maybe he does need the DID's.

Also we don't want an auto attendant - nobody has sold us out of that feature. We may be small but we are a consulting firm with large clients. We don't want our clients to punch through an automated system.

So are you wanting certain phone numbers to go to specific agents or groups?

Every person in the office needs to have their own direct dial phone number.

My boss doesn't want the first entity who answers the phone to be a computer and we don't have staff to answer and forward calls.

Ok, fair enough.

-Hal

Phone system with 10 extensions and PRI circuit w/ 20 DIDs. This is a typical SMB system. As mentioned, at this point, either get references or just pick a dealer and go with it.

Go with an integrated PRI and you can make this a cost effective package.

You can add Analog DID's to a Partner system with a "Multitech DID Finder" box - calls come in on Analog DID trunks, the Multitech grabs an Intercom line and transfers it to the intended extension.

It won't solve your conference volume problem.

Sounds like a Strata CIX40 would be perfect for the Toshiba route. You can have an 8-24 channel PRI (with DID's of course) and 8-16 digital ports, along with a VM/AA and IP capabilities.

Did I mention "wolves on a chicken" previously!
And talk about brain scrambled, ya'll scare me and I'm fairly knowledgeable about how offices work!

Whatever happened to the good old days when businesses considered incoming calls from clientel to be important enough to actually answer the dang thing.

So your gonna have 10 people and 20 DID's so that equals 2 DID's per person. So if someone calls Mary's DID Mary answers and if someone calls Joe's DID then Joe answers. Great, now all 10 members of the office staff must be present from open till close no lunch, no meetings, no exceptions. This scenario will work for about 2 weeks.

Now as far as choosing one of the 3 systems previously mentioned simply just pick the cheapest one because it doesn't really matter. You are creating the very nightmare you are afraid of by listening to someone trying to sell you something.

I would be pleased to tell you how to set up your business phone system to be able to take every single call coming in without using an Auto Attendant but someone in that location is gonna have to answer the dang phone. It doesn't have to be the same person all the time but someone has to do it.

BTW, I have zero financial interest in the setup and I also have been doing this for a few years also. You aren't the first and you won't be the last business operator that was going through this for the first time but already knew more than years of experience.

Let me know?

Looks like a pretty standard deal we do all the time.
Pri, 20 DID numbers. 1 for main line that rings to Reception then rolls to backup ring group during business hours. 1 or 2 numbers for faxes. 1 for back line to Voice Mail, 1 or 2 for remote programming, Direct numbers for those who need them. PRI allows you to control CID callbacks. Each user can choose to send the Companies Main Number or their Direct Number.
Many users don't give their DID to everyone.
When I call a contact I know I would much rather just ring them direct and leave them a message if no answer. If I must talk to them NOW, zero out and ask operator to page them, or if the system allows, have the VM page them. Let the receptionist do their job and handle new callers who do not know where they need to go. I too hate Auto Attendants, just answer the phone works best for many business. If you really want to stay on top of callers to DID just pair a cordless with your digital phone and not miss calls when walking around the office.
I think maybe this was the scenario on their mind.

We've got all our quotes in - now there is some stratification in the quotes - Avaya is significantly more.

One thing that has been noted is that the Avaya phones are full duplex over speaker while most others are half duplex. Also the build quality seems a bit better. Both these factors leave us with the perception that their phones are of better quality in general (e.g. call quality over handset as well) than say the Toshiba. (We don't like the NEC phones).

Also, from a maintenance standpoint, we have been quoted a much higher service rate/hr post installation for the Avaya than the others. The reason given is that it is more complex and requires a more highly skilled person.

When one considers that the difference is approx. $3000 which one could argue is nominal when compared with the recurring service costs over the lifetime of the system, is the Avaya a higher quality system that is better at basic functions such as call quality and conference calling - either over the handset or the speaker phone?

I have heard a lot of all of these systems are good - I feel this is a bit of a politically correct statement. I have also picked up from various sources that the Toshiba is a pretty popular and good choice. Again - assuming the providers are equally good - can you comment?

We aren't hundred percent focused on cost as you can see - but we don't want to dump money down the drain if there is no benefit.

I stand behind previous posts. All 3 of these system manufacturers make a quality product that will serve your needs for years to come. I think the Avaya IPO has more bells and whistles than the other 2 but you must consider the fact that those extra bells and whistles (a.k.a features) will never be used and thus that becomes a waste instead of an expense.

I also believe that no matter how you dress it up 20 DID's is pretty much the same as 20 analog lines, at least it is in this application. Feeding 20 incoming pathways into a 10 extension setup that will be manned by 7 staff members is a shoe that just doesn't fit.

The focus on the difference between these 3 systems is only distracting you away from how efficient your business will handle future incoming call traffic.

What type of business do you do anyway? I ask because medical is different from legal which is different from sales and so on.

I would have to say that the Avaya does not have a distinct advantage in call quality and conference calling, with the one exception being the full-duplex speakerphones. But, realistically speaking, how often do you want your employees using speakerphones? Most people use them rarely, but if you're going to use the feature often, you may want to see if the Toshiba has a full-duplex set as well.

While I'm not familiar with the latest Toshiba systems, I will say the company has a track record of building long-lasting products. And in my opinion are even more difficult to program than the Avaya.

In no way am I knocking the Avaya system. I would question the extra money you will spending on it. As has been said, the installing company is very important in this equation.

Best of luck!

I am not going to restate what has been said (point has been made). The comment from the Avaya dealer should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't understand why you would allow a "vendor" to bash a different product or cheapen an installer’s education. I would have walked them to the door and said GOOD DAY. In my book they would have lost the job, not because the product is better or worse than another, because they feel the need to cheapen a different product to make their product look better.

The guy's and gal's here have no vested interest in your sale just an opinion. Most of which were very careful not to bash a product or tech. I would consider that worth its weight. If it's going to be between the systems you mention AX the Avaya.

"I also believe that no matter how you dress it up 20 DID's is pretty much the same as 20 analog lines, at least it is in this application. Feeding 20 incoming pathways into a 10 extension setup that will be manned by 7 staff members is a shoe that just doesn't fit."

At least here in California, DID's come in blocks of 20. They don't have to assign them all.

Every person in the office needs to have their own direct dial phone number.

My boss doesn't want the first entity who answers the phone to be a computer and we don't have staff to answer and forward calls.

Ya know, from what you are saying you really don't need a phone system at all. 10 Centrex lines with telco VM will do what you want for a heck of a lot less. :shrug:


-Hal

"At least here in California, DID's come in blocks of 20. They don't have to assign them all."

Agreed, If you purchase a block of 20 and only assign 6 or 7 then it then boils down to the math of which is the most cost efficient, The 7 line analog package or the 20 DID block of which you will only use 33%.

I'm not disagreeing I'm just stating that the end user must consider this. We can't because we don't post prices and we don't need to, after all that is just basic math.

I also must concur with WRichey's evaluation of the Avaya Reps sales tactics. I think he is putting himself up on a pedestal a little too high. I suppose if your price is 3 grand higher than the others you better start blowin some smoke to justify it. That may or may not be the case.

My first question is, Are you happy with your current vendor and have they treated you fairly in the past? If the answer is yes and their bid is within the ballpark then you should stick with them. If the answer is no throw their bid out and call the references from the other vendors. The product is only going to function as good as the installation so the vendor is more important then the brand.

Sorry to disagree, but in our area a Dynamic PRI beats analog hands down for any system with more than 1 company to answer phones for. (IMHO)
The reason being: you don't have to allocate line capacity to each company or dept. If you buy 12 channels they can be used in any manner (2 calls in for comp A and 8 calls in for comp B then go to 8 for A and 2 for B)
The phone rings and the display tells you how to answer.
Also allows the use of cell phone twinning and off premise transfer without volume loss.

Most manufacturers saw the writing on the wall and have incorporated PRI cards in their small systems.
It's a way in which the small guys can have all the bells & whistles of the 100 plus user system.

It's a good deal when the cost to have 12 or so lines is more than the cost of a PRI/DID circuit.

Why NOT have a set-up like brokeda has laid out. It may not be for everyone--but it makes sense.

Around here the break-point is about 8-10 analog business lines. Once you hit that number or higher it's just as much to have a PRI delivered, plus you get all the PRI benefits.

I don't see a disagreement here on the value of a PRI/DID circuit. In fact I definitely agree. I apologize for my lack of communication skills. I base my current opinion on my belief that it may be a shoe that doesn't fit well for this member at the current time. Maybe down the road but not currently.

Since the member has already stated that their is a Partner already in place then I assume their are already analog lines in place and some sort of data circuit, probably DSL that is part of the current providers package.

I never have been crazy about major communications changes in an office by both a system dealer and a service provider. Too much of an opportunity for each of them to blame each other when the cutover doesn't go perfect. And we know they never do.

Also changing over from analog to PRI will probably include a new data circuit which will bring the computer gurus into the cutover mix.

One other item that always seems to associate itself with PRI/DID is non-technical but important. Allowing the PRI provider's sales person to close the deal when he or she infers that each office member will have their own private number or numbers depending upon the pilot programming leaves the customer with the impression that this can't be accomplished with their current analog configuration. When the customer falls for it and dumps it on you to implement it can eliminate many of the possible incoming call configurations you have relied on to please the customer in the first place.

I personally don't like eliminating my systems features in order for a sales person from who knows where to make their sales quota.

PRI's definitely have a value in the market and I agree 100% with my fellow techs brokeda, JWRacedog and Kumba.

I won't argue the point that some of the others have of what type of lines you need etc because none of us know all of the details of your business.

As for the comments from the Avaya dealer that disturbs me a bit. The price difference you mentioned seems a little high between the systems but without the details of either quote, again I can't say what is fair. The differences in price may just be the dealer's involved. If there are any more reputable dealers for both brands in your area, it might be worth while to do a little comparison shopping.

As for the more advanced technical skills needed, I'd agree that is mostly BS from a salesman. Again, the hourly service rate should be compared to other companies in the area. While the IP Office may require slightly different technical knowledge compared to some systems, I would say it is no "harder" than any other system in the same class.

Hi.

From my research which has been quite extensive. The 3 systems you should consider are:

1. Samsung
2. Panasonic
3. ESI

The bashing of competitors products is not allowed, period. Read the rules for posting and Terms of Service.

If it were me, being or Scotch and German descent (i.e. cheap), I'd be looking at some of the now discontinued Panasonic KXTD systems that are being uninstalled from "everywhere" for no good reason.

These systems will be around for years yet as they were workhorses for many years up until a very little while ago, and I would expect them to be very common for another 6 to 7 years yet. Most phone guys know their way around these units and should have one or two laying around.

I love the Panasonic hybrid systems, and would be looking at a KX-TD 816. You could have 8 digital (system) phones and up to another 8 plain old phones without any expansion cards, or up to 16/16 with one EXT card.

Hope that helps, rather than confuses,
Jason

Please avoid bashing any one manufacturer like this, especially when your opinion is based on a single account of second hand information.

Every company building tech products is capable of putting a few lemons on the market, just as there are some amazing products that come from unlikely sources. You cannot judge every product that comes from a company based on one experience, either good or bad. (Especially when the experience was not even your own.)

I can tell you there are several phone system brands that I had never heard of until I came to this site. I have no experience with these product lines, and I cannot tell you anything about them. But I can tell you that if I were to bash those products, I would be insulting a number of people on this board who choose to sell and service these products. These are people with a great deal of knowledge, experience, and personal integrity. If they choose to represent and stand behind a manufacturer or product line, there must be a good reason.

"I never heard of the ESI phone system before today. I have spent a few minutes looking over their website."

MK3 you posted this on March 22, 2008, in the ESI forum.

My question is......

How thorough and extensive is your research?

And please qualify your experience/expertise in this area.

Ken:

Three other members of the board told him that the ESI is a great system, one of them a Mod, how much more extensive research can you get?! (tongue firmly planted in cheek) :shrug:

"Nitsuko/NEC ( horrible quality, horrible tech support)
I heard a story of how a customer spend thousands of dollars on a voicemail system only to have its hard drive died."

So you base this on a hard drive that crashed? Hate to break it to you but NEC doesn't make hard drives. Besides, NEC has been offering 5 year parts warranty out of the box. I have to beg to differ as NEC tech support has been outstanding and apparently it must be doing something right as it's market share is astounding in the small system dept.

This thread has officially been hijacked. Those wanting to discuss Nitsuko/NEC quality issues need to do so in the proper forums please. I'm certain reliable information is much more available there for those interested in Extensive Research.

That is just my personal opinion from what I've seen. I am not trying to make a federal case of out it.

You are free to purchase any system you feel is right for you.

The bashing of competitors products is not allowed, period. Read the rules for posting and Terms of Service.

When the customer tried to find out if they could send the hard drive in for repair or get a replacement hard drive for the voicemail system.

Since when is a hard drive user serviceable? Customer has no business mucking with the inside of equipment, that's why they got the answer they did. The customer needed to go to the dealer they bought the system from and installed it who will handle warranty issues.

Your "research" has the stench of CG end user who bought off the internet. A lesson for all about the value of a customer/dealer relationship.

-Hal

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hbiss:
When the customer tried to find out if they could send the hard drive in for repair or get a replacement hard drive for the voicemail system.

Since when is a hard drive user serviceable? Customer has no business mucking with the inside of equipment, that's why they got the answer they did. The customer needed to go to the dealer they bought the system from and installed it who will handle warranty issues.

Your "research" has the stench of CG end user who bought off the internet. A lesson for all about the value of a customer/dealer relationship.

-Hal

The bashing of competitors products is not allowed, period. Read the rules for posting and Terms of Service.

MK3, Private Message sent

Well, for one thing Nitsuko doesn't exist anymore, take that for whatever it's worth. I think this covers your "research" pretty well. It seems NEC thought so poorly of the Aspire that it based it's IPK series entirely around it. We sell both ESI and Nec Aspire, and Tadiran, and have for many years now. To say the ESI is a far better product in every way seems a little weak considering if we didn't need the Aspire to fill a void by the ESI and Tadiran we wouldn't have ever picked it up.

From what you descibed it sounds like a dealer issue and not and NEC issue. You will find in this business the dealer makes 99% of the difference. Quite honestly I find NEC an easy company to get replacements (if needed) and in warranty no questions asked.

As to the limitations of the Aspire, of course it has some...so does every other system out there. I could write volumes on the ESI as well.

Just listen to what you wrote and it doesn't sound like you were functioning through a dealer but trying to do an end run and got sales which happens when you don't have techs certified on the product.


Off soapbox now....

Oops Grider sorry, I didn't see your post.

Look, I can see this might be getting out of hand and turn into a war between systems.

I am sure if you said a Lexus was higher quality than a KIA, you would have Kia dealers who make a living selling kia cars saying it was not true.

We have Nitsuko/NEC dealers here that will defend the product they sell no matter what.

Perhaps we should use the PM if you want my 2 cent worth or just move on to another topic here before it gets out of hand.

As for this post, let just agree to disagree and move on.

No problem it was just an idea that came and went.

Continue onward!!

Actually I would have said the difference between a Chevy and a Ford. Opinions always vary, it just serves one better to be knowledgeable of the subject to have a good debate. I don't think there is a phone system out there I haven't had a problem with at one point or another. What is really nice is being able to say you work on both systems in question, set both up and compare features, quality etc... Not only do that but say you have worked with both for 8+ years.

Like you said we can agree to disagree and thats a heathly thing.

The bashing of competitors products is not allowed, period. Read the rules for posting and Terms of Service.

If you wish to continue to discuss the merits or shortfalls of various products take it off the board. You can discuss the points of your product without cutting down the competitors product.

If you wish to argue this point. Take it off the board.

A couple of moderators have tried to guide this post in the right direction, but some aren't taking the hint. Which is the reason for the direct approach.

I like peach pie so yall can jump off a bridge......... anyway you can really do the same amount of functions with anything on the market today I don't see where this is a big discussion, it comes down to the vendor who will install and service the equipment. If you want to compare price great just get the specs so you are comparing apples to apples. You don't want to compare the hardware prices of the PRI box with the box handling the analog. If you can get the two quotes to reflect the same type of material and what it will handle then you can look at price when you start to look at price then it's time to see who you feel you can trust and who is reputable and will show up on time to service your equipment. I've dealt with other systems and we just don't do it anymore becuase we are not familiar with the things we do not sell. We tell customers that up front we don't deal with the product if you want us to still try and help great if not great. If they are in need of a new setup we'll gladly provide a quote.

" the Avaya phones are full duplex over speaker while most others are half duplex" There is some real expense in what is it, 10 full duplex speaker phones?
If they are not offering them, drop them from consideration, easy proccess of elimination. If not the case, they should be able to upgrade the phones to full duplex, and offer an apples for apples price comparison. If they can not then they are obviously inferior in some repsects.

I have not been certified on the CIX, yet have been on the CTX releases. I am going to assume that the CIX, and its voicemail options are comparable to the below listed items.

In particular the IPO has highly advanced conference bridge capabilities with up to 64 member conference bridge right out of the box standard. I am sure the others have the previously mentioned conference bridge capabilities, and the ability to do incoming call routing based on incoming caller ID to route callers to their companies CSR, hunt group, or ACD agents within your organization is a simple feature you may benefit from.