atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information Best system for a teaching environment?

Long post, so please bare with me.

I teach and do tech work for a Network & Telecom program at a local college. Most of our content is network related, along with structured cabling and some telephony basics. Long story short, we don't cover nearly enough telephony, at least in my opinion. I plan to fix this by creating one in-depth key-system installation course. To accomplish this however, I need systems to work on. I have a Meridian 8x24 and an Onyx VS right now, and that's fine for use in the structured cabling course. For my key-system course I want something better, I want something more current. So...

What system would you choose for the classroom? The complexity needs to be somewhere between Meridian and NEAX. I always liked the idea of using the NEC Elite. They aren't too difficult to understand, lots of features to be explored, and you have the hardware aspect with the cards.

IP isn't an issue, that's being covered off elsewhere in the program. Low cost is obviously a big factor, because students do have a bad habit of breaking things. I would want a system that is primarily programmed through the sets, and better yet, a system that would allow multiple people to configure different program areas at the same time. Optional laptop programming is nice, but I want the students to experience an input method that doesn't involve a keyboard for once. The system doesn't have to be brand new, but it should have been current within the past 5 years.

Your advice is greatly appreciated. Bonus points if you can set me up with a manufacturer contact that wants to help me out with equipment and training materials.

What about Panasonic DBS? PLenty of features, somehwat complex, yet not as involved as programming a Rolm CBX or something. It was current in the past five years, but recently disontinued, so you can find some parts pretty cheaply. Programming can be done through a phone, or by terminal/comm. program.

Finding a system that allows programming from more than one set at a time will be next to impossible.

Clinton We need to talk, I am in the middle of the same project. My wife teaches Cisco/A+/Networking and wants to add a telecom class. I have a couple systems (1 digital + 1 analog)for the students to work with and am trying to setup teaching material at this point. If you want to swap ideas give me a PM

Question. Most telephone labs, when you go to train, have a key system/ per work station. How many would you need? IMHO you can't go wrong with an NEC Aspire or Aspire S you can program through a phone, use a web browser, or dedicated programming tool which allows you to pre-program without being on the system at all and you simply upload it.

Three systems would be enough for my lab. I have groups of three or four students that work together. Having a system for each student would be great, but the cost and space requirements are too high.

NEC was my first choice based on my experience with the products, but I didn't want to be too biased.

I've worked with the Panasonic Super Hybrids but not he DBS, so I'll have to check into that.

I'd be happy to swap ideas. PM sent.

Guys, I taught telecom classes for a couple of years at Ericsson and I may have a few helpful hints for you. I will have to look in some of my other computers to see if I can find some of the powerpoint presentation formats we used. If you are interested let me know and I'll look for them.

IMHO You MUST have multiple systems for a class to go "Smoothly" and allow the students as much "hands-on" time as possible.

As grider mentioned, the issue of more than one person programming a system at any given time is a huge obstacle in the smaller systems.

As far as system suggestions, Personally, I like the Vodavi STS systems. They are a little strange at first but not bad after you get to know your way around the manual.

Because there is more AT&T/Avaya base out there than most any other system, I would like to float the idea of preparing your students for what they might see in the real world. Hence the AT&T Partner. The new 308 processor package is extremly competitively priced.
In some parts of the country there are no or very little presense of many of these "popular" or "sexy" brands or models. But you can bet that almost everywhere there are Merlins and Partners. I would train for what they are more likely to see, rather than what happens to be the "cool" system for the moment. My 2 cents. Brian

Any tips or materials you can pass along would be very much appreciated.

What would your thoughts be on having several systems of different types that student could rotate through, vs. all identical systems?

I'll definately be taking a closer look at the Vodavi STSe. I'd never heard of Vodavi before I came to this forum, but from what I've seen so far it looks well suited. Thanks.

I was acually going to suggest the STSE, It has a lot for the money and the price is great. Different systems may make it a bit more difficult to teach since you will have a lot more to cover...though getting students familier in multiple systems us a major plus IMHO.

That is a very good point, although in our area the branding is quite the opposite. The only Merlins and Partners I've dealt with around here were at drug stores. Most everything here (Okanagan Valley, BC, Canada) is Nortel, Mitel, Toshiba, Panasonic, NEC, Nitsuko, and recently Samsung.

Initially I really did want to use systems that they were most likely to deal with locally. On the other hand there are some politics involved in choosing a product affiliated with one of our local interconnect companies. I do want our graduates to have the fundamental skills and concepts so they can go to work for any of these interconnects. I don't want to see a graduate go out, work as a trunk slammer, and pass himself off as an NEC tech with just my course under his belt. That hurts the local NEC dealer and makes the grad and our program look bad.

But still, training them to work with something that has a large install base locally does give them the best opportunities. I clearly haven't made up my mind yet.

That would be the best for the students. It will make the Instructor's job a little more difficult because he or she will have to know the different systems very well in order to be able to help a student regardless of where the student is in the process of programming.

I will gather up the stuff I have and try to sort it out and get it to you. It will take a little time because I must make sure none of the information is proprietary to anyone.

I don't think you need multiple telephone systems.

You should be focusing on telephony concepts... Hunt groups, pick up groups, line pools etc, telco features and proper trouble shooting proceedures. To create a well round telecom tech, teach terminology and how to read and find the info in the manuals :read: . You can use any brand of telephone system for the hands on experience. I suggest one that uses both telephone and terminal interface.

If you want one that lets everyone access programming at the same time use a Nortel BCM, but it is only a computer programming interface. It's also expensive.

The advantage of multiple systems is that it will show the students that although most of the basics in telephony remain the same in each system, the systems are different when it comes to programming. And they will not get too comfortable with just one system and expect them all to be the same.

It will also show them that each manufacturer has their own lingo and terminology in the manuals.

I've worked with three technicians who admitted that when they first started working in the industry, they honestly expected everyone to be using the same system they learned on in school.

We actually do have a BCM that our students use in 4th semester. They learn about unified messaging, VoIP packets, etc. The problem is, they don't have the fundamental concepts at that point, and everything they're doing is higher level. They need to learn the basics on a small key system before they ever touch the BCM.

My wife Crystal is planning on using the Cisco structured cabling course. I haven't seen the material as she just got the ok and its for next years class. At this point I have a Vodavi STS (thanks to Ed :bow: ) and a Panasonic KX-TA1232 with voicemail, if I have enough room I want to add a third system. I am also setting up an Astrisk box that will intergrate with her Cisco lab through a Adtran. I hope to be able to do ISDN, T1 and Voip between systems, this should give them a good idea of how telecom communications work. Lots of this is new to me so its taking time :scratch: .

Wow! The thoughts of being able to learn all of this at a school is a foreign idea to me. There aren't any schools around here that teach telecom.

Have you considered buying a few used systems off of Ebay?

Contact Ottawa , if they are like our federal government . They donate slighty used systems to NFPO'S all the time . Worth a try . All they can say is no or send the Mounties to your home .

As far as I know there aren't any around Dallas anymore. I know there were some years ago but I can't locate any now. I think ITT and Devry teach some telephony classes but I can't seem to get a lot of info from devry, they keep wanting me to visit the campus. As if I'm supposed to fall in love with the place and sign up for classes on the spot. And I can't apply to teach for them because I'm not a college professor.

I have thought of starting my own school for this around Dallas but I have to wonder why the ones that were there years ago are no longer there.

What do you think folks? Would you be willing to pay to send a "green" tech to school to get a boost up in training? Do you think people would be willing to pay for the training themselves?
I know the cost is the big question. I think the ones that were there years ago charged $500 for 2 people for one week of training. I personally do not think one week is enough. Two weeks would be full at the very least.

Please let me know what your opinions are.

Merritt, the Ericsson MD110 ( BC 11 ) will do all of that. But I have to warn you OMG they are very expensive. If you can find one used somewhere that would be the way to go. But make sure the software is BC 11 because anything less ( BC 9 ) does not have VOIP. There may be a newer version but I'm not aware of it if there is.

if you had about three of avaya's small ip office control units and a room full of lan terminals, you could load the ip office manager program on all of the terminals and let all of the students work on off line configurations at the same time.for testing they could upload their changes and see their results on a real switch. avaya may have a special offer that they can make you under the circumstances.

My first job in the industry was as a co-op student from an electronics program. I couldn't understand why they wanted to hire me when I knew absolutely nothing about the industry. Now I understand...there really isn't enough training being done for these jobs. An electronics tech is as close as they can get in most cases.

We have two interconnects here that have ongoing job postings that are never filled. Out East, Bell Canada always has about 50 job postings for technicians. "Experience is an asset. Grade 12 diploma required." The expectations seem to be getting rather low.

As for Ebay...I've looked, I've made bids, but I just haven't found a good enough deal on a new enough system. And again, I've limited my searches to the systems I know.

So that I understand, Clinton, are you just gathering information or are you in the actual process of buying equipment? The reason that I ask is that I am a huge fan of higher or continuing education. I would imagine that there are plenty of other members here who feel the same way.

I am sure that once you have your system selected, budget and shopping list put together that someone here will be able to get you the best deal on the hardware.

At this point I'm in the planning stage. I need to have a business case I can present to my department and say, "Yes, we can build an entire course around this material."

They think that if we teach a cabling course and a VoIP course, there isn't enough material left over for a full telephony course. I need to prove to them otherwise.

Having said that, I think I'm going to try and justify buying a new system for curriculum development. So Ed, if you would be kind enough to send me a price for the STSe with two phones, I'll see if I can't spend some money.


I'd also like to say thanks to everyone for your ideas and input. It's all very much appreciated.
:toast:

I would tend limit my choices of a key system to Lucent/Avaya Partner, Panasonic, or Norstar simply because they are popular, ie, in use. I would lean toward the Lucent or Panasonic becuase they use 1 AND 2 pair phones. Norstar just uses one pair.


I'm thinking about all the torture my wife had to go thru when I was starting out and installing variuos key systems in my home....

Richard

If you are going to select by marketshare/name brand NEC IS the largest in the key system arena.

Just curious where this last stat came from regarding NEC. A few years ago AT&T/Avaya had about 26% of all systems installed, Nortel had I think 24% of base systems. Two brands had 50% of the marketplace. This was a report from a firm called Northern Business Review or something close (I have a photo copy at my office). Things have shifted some, so I would be curious to verify the above claim. What percentage are they saying NEC has? Is that just new systems going out the door or is that installed base also? Please bring us up to date. There is very little NEC in this part of the country.

When i started in phone work, i was not allowed to touch sys, until i understood backbone wire,trace,and the difference between usoc,568a,568b and the systems they worked on. I should say i learned on 1a2 wire and systems before the newer sys. with 4pr. then 2pr. now 1pr. With voip,instant mess,vpn access,etc on systems now.laptop program,remote program and alarm reporting. A system that covers these items would seem to be the only one that a student should learn on if they expect to prosper. It seems that now i see three types of companies out here. Cabling voice or network,systems{ voice }only and last PC/Voice where they do both.

I agree with Marv. Focus on system basics more than an actual system itself. Base your courseware on the standard(yes, we do have some) practices and applications of a system. Trying to teach a course specfic to one brand or system makes it extremely difficult for practical applications. Case in point. I learned telecom they way most do, OJT. I went to work as a warehouse person and eventually worked my way into a field tech position. Everything that I learned, I learned from the guys around me, color code, DT, etc.. They did nothing but Iwatsu systems. If anyone has ever done Iwatsu, you know the wiring scheme of thiers is atypical to say the least. I worked there two years before I learned that black is the third wire and yellow is the fourth.

So if you want my two cents, get several different systems, learn the basics of systems, and teach your students to be able to adapt to different manufactors.

Iwatsu ! Omega 2,3,4 . WAPITA ! :shrug:

The Inter-Tel Axxess is most likely way to complex and expensive for what you're wanting to do. On the other hand, there are a lot of old Inter-Tel Premiers (1224s or 2460s) out there that can be had for a song. As Marv mentioned what you're really wanting to do is deal with hunt groups etc. I will mention that those systems are going to be CLI, but are very good to cut your teeth on.

I think Merritt has some experience with these. You might ask him when you two talk. Good luck.

When I went through the apprenticeship program 15years ago and went to NAIT tech college in Edmonton,they had a old crossbar switch. You could follow your call through the switch and see parts move. They had a old NEC electra with the fuses on the ends of the cards.

Don't know where they get there info from. Around here Nortel is the most popular by 2 to 1 over any over brand.

The firm is called Infotech, and they trach all the ports for this stuff. It's interesting when I goto a meeting and some Avaya or Nortal guy tells him THEY are #1...then I bring the facts.

BTW, Toshiba is probably going to break into #3 in the next year.

If NEC happens to be outselling everyone this year, good for them. Its a horse race sometimes and different brands jockey for position and shift the first place. The sexy brand of the month should way little, in my opinion, in what to teach techs that are going out into the real world. It is what is out there that I think may be of real value. And if you go to 100 businesses randomly in the US, I would guess you would find at least 30-40% nationwide have either Avaya/AT&T or Nortel. These are exisiting businesses. Just a random sampling. (I did in my market and AT&T alone was pinging 50%.. regardless of what Vodiva or NEC or whomever was doing this quarter).

Again chances are, your studnets will probably work on Nortel and Avaya key systems. New techs may work on many others, but those two brands are keepers... Techs will not go wrong with a working knowledge of them, imho. Brian

Not to name drop , but Shoretel , Nortel & Mitel are taking alot of the Voip customers . They all work extremely well if the customer listens and follows your Network recommendations . If they don't they end up with a "POS" and a bad taste in their mouth for Convergent Technolgy ! IMHO .

I have not formed an opinion on CCM yet . I have yet to figure out how they could easily supply more that 100 Analog ports . Since they have no TDM peripherals to offer the customer .

Let's all remember that this particualr question was angled at a telecom frim in Canada...not the US. Perhaps systems are different up there, maybe more Nortel than AT&T/Avaya. Whatever the case it seems like the general concensus is that it would be best to teach fundamentals and then focus on one or two different systems; perhaps Nortel and NEC just to get a good foundation on two systems that are widely distibuted.

Steve

You would be hard pressed to find a computer course that didn't at least mention punch cards. Why not teach your students the ins and outs of 1A2 key systems? OK...It doesn't meet your requirement of being 'current', but THAT would be a good hands on course (almost like an Erector Set). You can hear the lights blinking (via the Interupter). They would get a lot more wiring experience. And, what system could provide a better demonstration of Supervision?

I think you need to consider working this into your plans.

(I'm kidding of course...but only half way.)

I agree with BCMguy. The only true way to learn telecom systems is on a 1a2 system. The true knowledge of a phone system is not just reading a programming manual, its how your voice gets transmitted along the lines to its destination.

Yeah, there's no doubt about the fact that 1A2 training truly teaches the fundamentals of supervision, logic (if-then scenarios) and hold bridges. Unfortunatly, that stuff would scare away anybody new to the industry! BCM, as much as your post was tounge-in-cheek, there is definitely some merit in your thinking.

I think I'll stick with the hardware that was manufactured in my lifetime Marty. You do have a good point though. I like using the Onyx VS in my cabling course because the relays are so loud. I can hold up a CO and station card from an old NEC MarkII and explain what's happening when they hear the clicking sounds.

As for Market share, I can only speak for what I've seen in a small area of Western Canada. It's definately Nortel and NEC out here. But I do like the idea of using something like the Vodavi STSe as the standard system in the lab, and round things out with the Meridian and maybe an NEC Elite 48.

Really what I'm trying to do is round out the telecom portion of a network and telecom program. Very few of our students will be going to work for interconnect companies, a few more will go to Telus (carrier), and the rest go into networking. So while I was originally concerned about teaching on a system they were likely to see in the local market, that isn't the case anymore. The things I want to teach them are not particular to any one brand name.

Keep to the basics. In the real world you may have to work on anything.

Every system has it's oddities --- it is all in what you become accustomed to.

If you do it in an orderly manner any system will work properly.

Good Luck, Clinton

KLD

I stand by my orginal post. Teach basics. Systems change so fast that what you learn today to program is gone tomorrow. But the basic lingo remains the same.

If the students are going to be in the IT industry, what a breath of fresh if they can speak to a phone tech in a language they both understand.

Now you're talking! You are preparing the students to live in the world instead of just the village.

My deepest apologies to everyone for the post that was in this spot. I really wasn't drunk. As it turns out, my daughter wanted to see what it was like to post on the website where Daddy spends so much time. Well Waine, guess this gives you and me something else in common.

Sorry again everyone.

YUP

I figured it was something along those lines. I'm sure my daughter will be causing the same kind of trouble for me in a couple of years.

I guess she figured as much time as I spend typing here it MUST be more fun than nick.com

Guess thats what I get for using her laptop to check the board when I was i'm the living room :rofl:

Alright Mac, how do we know this is really you, whats the seceret Inter-Tel handshake.

The secret is what finger do you use!

Good point Rhett. I'll have to PM it though :rofl:

I trust ya Trace. Your good to go. . Lol

One of the best platforms to teach telephony today will be the Open Systems PBX's. "Some assembly is required", but the students and the instructor benefit by showing industry standard configurations based on SIP (Session Initiation Protocol) with the source code available for those who want to look under the hood.

You can also connect FXS/FXO and T1/PRI circuits for traditional POTS and TDM equipment in addition to the VoIP Power over Ethernet IP phones.

As a telephony instructor and designer I carry a complete Open Source PBX in FedEx-proof suitcases for configuration testing and interoperability tests just to verify specific setups as well as VoIP training around the world.

The Open Source also keeps the costs down for those building training and testing labs.

Here are some reference links to get you started ...

https://www.asterisk.org/
https://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Open+Source+VOIP+Software
https://developer.berlios.de/projects/ser/

But this only teaches VOIP and NOT all around telephony...and I might add only Asterisk.

I appreciate the input Peter, but our students already learn VoIP in later courses. My intent here is to teach the basic theory of operation/installation/programming of a basic key system. Asterisk is a great project, but it doesn't really fit the bill here.

Coral Tech you need to update your information on the Open Source market place -- it is changing and it is not just VoIP. You can build a complete Asterisk system with narrowband POTS phone sets, or KTS phone sets, or digital sets using TDM/PRI circuits using NFAS or just FXS and FXO lines using groundstart, loopstart, kewlstart signaling, wired or wireless -- all without any VoIP -- but that would be a disservice to the students to not show any VoIP in today's market.

See the following link for some market data ...
https://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/voip/ippbx-market-numbers-continue-to-shine.asp

https://www.infoworld.com/ShoreTel_...curNodeId=152&prId=SFTH02301122005-1

For the shrinking PBX/KTS sector the system vendors in 3Q05 by total lines shipped were Nortel, Avaya, Siemens, Alcatel, and NEC.

It is a fun time to be in the telephone business with a changing world of 2.5 billion mobile phones, 900 million POTS phones and 25 million VoIP phones -- and the mix is changing each day.

Clinton. You could take a look on eBay for some key sets. I usually have better luck looking for "key telephone" rather than KTS or key systems.

It sounds like you will have a fun class.